Dutch West India Uniform

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Postby Andy R » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:23 am

steve stanley wrote:I thought they were meant to be British HEIC.....with a sudden change from Red uniforms in the first film??
Steve(confused...)


B'ahh, sons of silly people.

Well I took them to be Dutch at any rate because of the uniform - and mybe something else, but who can say.

I'll have to wait till my son picks it up on DVD to find out.


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Postby Fox » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:47 am

Thanks for all the input.

I've read it all through again, and I'm not sure I understood if there was anything approaching a consensus or conclusion.

So [and I appologise, but this is not my primary period, so there is much ignorance all round] slowly, and with subtitles for the hard of thinking...

What did we think, and more importantly, why?



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Postby Andy R » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:55 am

Fox wrote:Thanks for all the input.

I've read it all through again, and I'm not sure I understood if there was anything approaching a consensus or conclusion.

So [and I appologise, but this is not my primary period, so there is much ignorance all round] slowly, and with subtitles for the hard of thinking...

What did we think, and more importantly, why?


I think a lot of this comes down to what you want to do, and how much use you want to get from it.

I like Mark's description from the Osprey book (Blue faced yellow) and that sits in my mind of what sort of thing they wore.

Red faced "anything" sits well for Dutch and British alike.

Any key things that you are looking for?


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Postby Fox » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:11 am

Yes, Mark's description struck me.

I like the idea of Marines, I like that the uniform goes back to 1675 and doesn't appear significantly changed a hundred years later.

What I think I really need to understand is did the DWIC have any standing troops in 1700, or where they relying on an as-and-when type militia?

It's been suggested that company troops of the time might have worn uniforms reflecting those of the regular army. Would they have been an accurate reflection, or more of an in-the-style-of type thing [were all unifroms a bit like that?].

Is there any good source I should be reading to give me this sort of understanding? [I suspect I will be buying a few Opsery publications this weekend to get me started!].



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Postby Andy R » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:21 am

As there was little difference between the cut of civilian and military clothes, the only thing that really does make something military (apart from "uniform" colours) is the stand of arms.


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Postby Nigel » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:37 am

m300572 wrote:
he's "more orange that the man from Dell Monte."


Thats for sure - he used to paint his blue nose pink so it didn't stand out too much in a covenanting regiment full of Kafflicks!

I've seen him in 88th garb recently, he still comes to our banquet!


Jonhhys alive OMG

Lob us a contact please


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby Fox » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:51 am

Andy R wrote:As there was little difference between the cut of civilian and military clothes, the only thing that really does make something military (apart from "uniform" colours) is the stand of arms.


:oops: The SO is a costume maker, she would have known that. [Silly Fox].

Is there much in the way of insignia? I get the impression: not so much.

<thinks>Also must get a proper stand of arms. I have nice flintlock carbine which I use for my more general piratey thing [see this months Skirmish], but need a good bayonet and a cartridge box.</thinks>

Any recommendations?



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Postby Tod » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:05 pm

Get a full length musket, as Andy R says they are very sexy (but then Andy and I share the same fetish). Bayonets are not reallya carbine thing, although they will fit some short guns. But short gun and bayonet, not as good as long gun and bayonet. Gary bate is your man for good guns and he imports some nice stuff now.
I can do you a caretridge bag or belly box, all you need to do is tell me what you want.
Andy (I think) was refering to a sword as aside arm, althoughI wouldn't fight with some of the imports as they are totally rubbish. Andy will give you more info.
If you're going pirate kicking some of RaT might be interested. I spoke to Bucket about this a while back the only problem is finding free week ends.



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Postby Fox » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:39 pm

Tod wrote:Get a full length musket, as Andy R says they are very sexy (but then Andy and I share the same fetish).

I have a much larger, musket length, cabinet on it's way right now, after which there will be more guns, probably starting with a Civil War matchlock I'm picking up cheap.

Tod wrote:Gary bate is your man for good guns and he imports some nice stuff now.

Yep. That's where the carbine came from, and the Blunderbuss I plan to get over the winter. I'm also probably going to order a one-off piece from him for pirating with, possibly a volley gun or something equally silly; doing the research over the winter.

Tod wrote:I can do you a caretridge bag or belly box, all you need to do is tell me what you want.

We'll speak at the NLHF.

Tod wrote:Andy (I think) was refering to a sword as aside arm, althoughI wouldn't fight with some of the imports as they are totally rubbish. Andy will give you more info.

I've got a nice import basket that I bought as cheap costume jewelry for doing [Hollywood] pirates, but it's turned out to be quite a nice robust sword. I now need to authenticate it, or get a proper one for the DWIC.

And time.... Yes, very much the enemy. I might only do pirates once or twice a year, that doesn't mean I don't want to do it properly.



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Postby Tod » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:00 pm

Fox wrote:Yep. That's where the carbine came from, and the Blunderbuss I plan to get over the winter. .


Have you ever fired a Blunderbus? I always put Gary in front of me. Prepare to have no friends, or no friends with hearing.



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Postby Fox » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:14 pm

Tod wrote:
Fox wrote:Yep. That's where the carbine came from, and the Blunderbuss I plan to get over the winter. .


Have you ever fired a Blunderbus? I always put Gary in front of me. Prepare to have no friends, or no friends with hearing.


Not yet.
I've seen the Sheppey Pirates' and Panzer John's fired, and it looked like great fun.

I've already learnt the "be stood just behind" lesson about discharging guns. Dave B has a habit of firing when I'm alongside [or in one case, immediately below]; this is particularly relevant for his all iron hook gun.

[BANG!]
[whaaaaaaaaAAAAAaaaaaEEEEEaaaaaa]
Wot?



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Postby Andy R » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:19 pm

Tod wrote:If you're going pirate kicking some of RaT might be interested.


Then what you need is a good red coat with white facings like the rest of the Scots Brigade

(Okay, rest means me, Tony, Willie, Lindsay, Ritchie, and a couple of others)


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Postby Andy R » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:40 pm

GUNS......

The c17th and c18th was the period of the long arm.

The standard musket issued to infantry had a 46" barrel up untill the 1760's in the British army and much longer on the continent.

When they were made shorter they went to 42" in general, with the exception being the India pattern bess with it's 39" barrel. That was running in conjunction with the New Land Pattern which retained it's 42" barrel.

Grenadiers were issued muskets with 37" barrels in the late c17th, and then they had full size muskets like everyone else.

Dragoons from the 1630's through to the 1740's had 46" muskets, downsizing to 42" pieces designed specifically for dragoons (although the Indipendant Highland Companies took them on as well)

Cavalry started with short guns and then addopted the Dragoon long gun sometime between the WSS and the WAS and took them through to 1796

Ron and Gary both carry a very nice late c17th doglock (which is louder that Tods guns by the way), but for the same price you can also buy a long land pattern bess (£350). For £295 Ron sells 2nd Land Pattern Bess's, and you can get an Indian pattern bess for £275 which is still a good compromise piece. Depends how far you want to go really.

But I really rate the dog lock...!


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Postby Andy R » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:44 pm

Tod wrote:Andy (I think) was refering to a sword as aside arm, althoughI wouldn't fight with some of the imports as they are totally rubbish. Andy will give you more info.


Yup, matey from NFOE is bulk buying 1742 hangers from Canada - or he would if more people would jump on the band waggon.

They work out at £38 + shared P&P.

They are probably as good as a fighting weapon as the originals - which really doesn't say a lot (or anything), but you try buying a scabbard with brass chape and throat in this country for less than £38...!

If he get's a big enough order (5) he will also order the plug bayonets I am after.


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Postby Tod » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:48 pm

Andy R wrote:

Ron and Gary both carry a very nice late c17th doglock (which is louder that Tods guns by the way)


But only due to the echo chamber next to it :twisted: :lol:
I need to go the monster back from Rosie, now that was the most horrible gun I've ever owned and scared every one in the Brigade including me.

Ritchie with a gun? Any one know who sells pikes these days?



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Postby Andy R » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:24 pm

Tod wrote:Ritchie with a gun? Any one know who sells pikes these days?


Yes, Ritchie with a gun (well, a matchlock, but they're close(ish))

He turned up in uber blag mode, snaffled a red coat (and bought it), borrowed a hat, bandoliers and matchlock.


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Postby steve stanley » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:37 pm

Another satisfied Doglock owner here......AND Gary's just taken delivery of a shipment of Blunderbusses(Blunderbussi ??)
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Postby Steve of RaT » Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:25 pm

Gary got 'busses, hope it's the over 20" type...

though first I need a French gun preferably a tule(sp?)


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Postby Tod » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:11 am

Just for info. any one wanting to bring a blunderbus on the field at a LW event is going to have to clear it with me first. I am not having free shooting with them all over the place.
Get a long gun, from what I recall blunderbus' weren't common and were carried by the higher ranking.
So Steve that's you and me talking to Gary at the fayre then? I'm just arranging to get a bigger cabinet :twisted: :lol:
Last edited by Tod on Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Postby Andy R » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:27 am

If you want a gun suitable for F&I and Jacobite, for Milice look at the 1717 (Gary should be able to get those in) or the 1728 if you fancy doing something Establishment based (ie, not militia)

The 1696 is very nice also, and in effect is just the 1717 without Grenadier modifications (barrel band and sling attachments)

PS
They're St Etienne, Tule provided muskets for the Navy, and the 1734 was shorter than the 1717 or 1728 with a 42" barrel - but much nicer and finer in my oppinion


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Postby Foxe » Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:39 pm

If you're looking seriously at guns for doing pirate then a blunderbuss is as good as anything (or indeed the carbine you already appear to own). For pirate-bashing you really need to look at a long-arm, type depending on exactly what you want to do.

DO NOT buy a bess of any pattern. They're not right for the period and there's too many of them about already. Great for other periods, but a waste of money for serious GAoP.

Regarding a consesus amongst pirate-bashers I don't know if one will ever truly be reached, so I guess it will probably end up that whatever the first three people go for will be emulated by others. DWIC is, IMHO too precise - of limited application. Red-coated militia could bash pirates anywhere in the world. But here's another thought: since there's a huge amount of research on the RN been done already, RN slop clothes for the period are available off the peg, and there are already people doing RN of the period, why don't potential pirate bashers join the Navy? It's a man's life! For those who think about such things, RN to pirate is a much simpler kit-change than soldier to pirate as well.


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Postby Andy R » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:43 pm

Hi Foxe,

This is where it starts getting dificult when you have the transition between the late doglocks and the 1st bess (1728)

What do you suggest as a good compromise piece to cover socket bayonets and slings? (1700ish+)

Don't know if you have seen the Irish bess's? They've got iron fittings rather than brass


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Postby Foxe » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:20 pm

Well, for military use the "Queen Anne" doglocks seem to be favourite, but on less well equipped troops - particularly in the colonies, and very much so amongst pirates - there is a vast array to choose from (in terms of originals, not necessarily repros): the obvious civilian fowlers, trade guns of English, French, or Dutch design, military arms such as the William and Anne doglocks and fusils de tulle, "buccaneer guns", and doubtless others which don't immediately leap to my tired mind.

I've seen the "Dublin Castle" besses, if that's what you mean? IIRC they only date to a couple of years earlier than the "first" pattern.

The trouble with besses (in terms of GAoP reenactment) is that they are very recogniseable and very well known, but too late.


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Postby Steve of RaT » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:15 pm

Tod wrote:So Steve that's you and me talking to Gary at the fayre then? I'm just arranging to get a bigger cabinet :twisted: :lol:


We'll have to sort a footpad event out and see how many small children wet themselves :twisted:

blunderbus' weren't common and were carried by the higher ranking.
Management decision you can have one if I can :lol:


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Postby steve stanley » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:22 pm

Tod wrote: from what I recall blunderbus' weren't common and were carried by the higher ranking.

Oh I don't know..Ebenezer in Kidnapped...Guards in ever naff Highwaymen film('tho I agree if you're talking Jacobite..)
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Postby Andy R » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:48 pm

GAoP is what, 1680 to 1720???

I'm trying to remember what someone said once?

It's crazy that such a short period of time gives such a wide variation on weapons and clothing.

And yes, Dublin bess's.

Just did some digging for early c18th muskets..
Image

and a mid to late c17th British doglock, Dutch doglock, and the repro one that Gary Bates and Ron Curley are offering...
Image


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Postby Andy R » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:00 pm

Tod wrote:Get a long gun, from what I recall blunderbus' weren't common and were carried by the higher ranking.


In fact, the only mention of one that I know of is Donald(?) Farquharson


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Postby Foxe » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:37 pm

GAoP, difficult to tell really - any dates are purely arbitrary. I'd say 1693 (first voyage of Thomas Tew to the Red Sea) to 1726 (execution of William Fly). That covers all the greats from Every through Kidd, Bellamy, Blackbeard, Low, Roberts etc, to the very end of that particular explosion of piracy. At the very least it must run until 1722 - the year Roberts was killed.

Blunderbusses: I guess it depends what you're portraying - plenty of 'em at sea. Anyone fancy doing the 1715 Caribbean Jacobite fleet?


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Postby Fox » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:48 am

I've just reserved my 'Buss from Gary.

I'll also talk to him about getting a dog locked long arm.

It may seem excessive, but it's all filling out our "through the ages" gunpowder demo.... :)



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Postby Andy R » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:03 am

Fox wrote:It may seem excessive, but it's all filling out our "through the ages" gunpowder demo.... :)


So, Napoleonic Rocket Troop next?

I don't know if you have ever seen them, but they are good.


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