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Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:26 pm
by Annis
Paul Allen wrote:
Annis wrote:Oh, there was someone at the Oyster Fayre in Colchester that sold LOADS of stockings of all different fantastic colours, alhtough a little dear at £4 a pair (mine have lasted about year until they started wearing out)
but I dont know what company it was.

Or alternatively, you could make and dye your own using stockingette (sp?) from Halfords and food colouring.

Annis x


£4 a pair seems quite reasonable to me ( am I getting soft, I wonder?).
Halfords the car parts people??


Yes, Halfords the car/bike shop. I was told you cut it down the length (the stockingette that is not the shop) and sew the bottom and sides.

Annis x

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:27 pm
by Annis
And those £4 ones are my favorite pair, because they are green, much better than cream (like my other pair for £2)!! :lol:

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:38 am
by MedicKitten
Tamsin, your ready knowledge of obscure lyrics never ceases to astound and amaze me!

So are you thinking of just doing school presentations then, oh New Person?

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:50 am
by Paul Allen
It's possible I might try to join a group. I certainly want to try learning some Tudor dances, but my main aim is to add to my schools' repertoire, 'cos it's my livelihood.

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:55 am
by Annis
Well, apply now if you want to go to Kentwell!

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:09 pm
by Lord High Everything Esle
Hi Paul
Welcome to the Tudor era. I notice that you say that your costume is "theatrical" standard. This will probably not meet the standards set for Kentwell nor the even higher standards of the "Tudor Group"!! :(

Do come and have a look at Kentwell this Summer. I'm sure you will be more than pleased. Kentwell is a great resource for the Living Historian. You have to put a lot in as a participant but you get more out of it. I now count a number of Kentwellies amongst my best and surest friends. :lol:

Before I became a Kentwell participant I could not sew on a button nor did I like Shakespeare. Now I have about 30 different hobbies all connected in some way with my Kentwell experience and I now even earn some of my living from them. :idea:

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:13 pm
by Lord High Everything Esle
Annis wrote:Well, apply now if you want to go to Kentwell!


Yes Paul now is the time that they receive applications. You then have to jump through lots of hoops to get there but it is worth while.

Participant open days start in March so not much time left.

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:16 pm
by Paul Allen
Lord High Everything Esle wrote:Hi Paul
Welcome to the Tudor era. I notice that you say that your costume is "theatrical" standard. This will probably not meet the standards set for Kentwell nor the even higher standards of the "Tudor Group"!! :(


No, I didn't think it would. I may have to get a new one made. Then again, I may just stick to school visits, for the time being. Kentwell is a nice idea, but I don't fancy going as a MoP, being a very poor spectator.
Thanks again to all of you for your kind responses and generosity with your time and information.

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:29 pm
by Lord High Everything Esle
Paul Allen wrote:
Lord High Everything Esle wrote:Hi Paul
Welcome to the Tudor era. I notice that you say that your costume is "theatrical" standard. This will probably not meet the standards set for Kentwell nor the even higher standards of the "Tudor Group"!! :(


No, I didn't think it would. I may have to get a new one made. Then again, I may just stick to school visits, for the time being. Kentwell is a nice idea, but I don't fancy going as a MoP, being a very poor spectator.


Hi Paul
Kentwell is quite unique as far as visitors are concerned. All the participants are fully interactive and will happily demonstrate their activites for you and talk to you about them in first person Tudorese. There are about 40 different activites to visit so you get quite a good walk in very pleasent surroundings as well!!

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:45 pm
by Jenn
i thought everyone knew about the yellow hose!

Have you done much school work before? I don't want to give you lots of advice only find out you've been doign this for years and it's useless to you

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:01 am
by Tuppence
No, that was Lidimy. Does yellow hose signify wooing in the sense of courtship? I just wanted them to go with my doublet and trunk-hose, which are in shades of yellow, gold and brown.


depends where you are - in some places it signifies courtship, in some places it means you are ready for courtship (i.e. available). of course, in other places it means nothing at all.

Oh, there was someone at the Oyster Fayre in Colchester that sold LOADS of stockings of all different fantastic colours, alhtough a little dear at £4 a pair (mine have lasted about year until they started wearing out)
but I dont know what company it was.

Or alternatively, you could make and dye your own using stockingette (sp?) from Halfords and food colouring.

Annis x


AAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHH NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOO

PLEASE don't tell me you mean those appalling, hideous, nasty, WRONG jersey / "knit" things that I've spent years trying to get out of my ECWS regiment.

Sorry, but they're just wrong. absolutely no excuse for them. It's as wrong as wearing modern sports socks or sheer nylons.

flippin' things should be burnt!!!!

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:26 am
by Sophia
Out of interest what style should knitted hose be, and when do they first come in?

I know they are out for WOTR but as am applying to do Kentwell though it best to ask while the issue is being raised.

Sophia :D

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:15 am
by Paul Allen
Jenn wrote:i thought everyone knew about the yellow hose!

Have you done much school work before? I don't want to give you lots of advice only find out you've been doign this for years and it's useless to you


I'd only heard of it in Shakespeare and the context seemed to suggest the colour was a whimsical suggestion, rather than a matter of custom.

I've done a lot of schoolwork, but for other periods. If you've learnt things that are specifically relevant to presenting the Tudors, I'd be grateful to hear it.

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:20 am
by Paul Allen
Annis wrote:Oh, there was someone at the Oyster Fayre in Colchester that sold LOADS of stockings of all different fantastic colours, alhtough a little dear at £4 a pair (mine have lasted about year until they started wearing out)
but I dont know what company it was.
Annis x


Would these be acceptable to Kentwell or the Tudor Group, do you know?
I'm minded to get some cheap, not-terribly-authentic ones to go with my theatrical costume and some better ones for re-enactment. I've sent to kentwell for info. on volunteering.

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:27 pm
by Nigel
In the 16th and 17th century there was a massive knitted hose industry encouraged at Royal level as a form of poor relief.

Exports were int he hundreds of thoudands of apirs

Paul if theya re the crap ones tuppence mentions the Tudor group would probabaly say no

As quite simply they are wrong for the form of historical context for which thye are sold.

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:10 pm
by Tuppence
Out of interest what style should knitted hose be, and when do they first come in?

I know they are out for WOTR but as am applying to do Kentwell though it best to ask while the issue is being raised.

Sophia


I have little data on when they first appear (off hand), although they're def around by the mid 16th c.

the best thing to do style wise is check out paul meekins - he does ones that are absolutely perfect.

Would these be acceptable to Kentwell or the Tudor Group, do you know?


I have no idea on Kentwell, although if Annis wears them I suspect they allow them ( :roll: ), but the tudor group would probably tell you know once they'd picked themselves up of the floor from laughing!

(ps - all this is assuming it's the hideous cotton (or worse - lycra) jersey things that you can pick up at lots of traders markets.

I won't embarrass the sellers by naming them, but they have the hose in large baskets - they do two types - one that looks knitted (but are a modern fine knit, and as bad as the jersey ones), and one that are just stockings, basically. I wonder how many men would carry on earing them if they knew they actually are modern stockings :lol:

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:22 pm
by Lord High Everything Esle
Tuppence wrote:
Out of interest what style should knitted hose be, and when do they first come in?

I know they are out for WOTR but as am applying to do Kentwell though it best to ask while the issue is being raised.

Sophia


I have little data on when they first appear (off hand), although they're def around by the mid 16th c.

the best thing to do style wise is check out paul meekins - he does ones that are absolutely perfect.

Would these be acceptable to Kentwell or the Tudor Group, do you know?


I have no idea on Kentwell, although if Annis wears them I suspect they allow them ( :roll: ), but the tudor group would probably tell you know once they'd picked themselves up of the floor from laughing!

(ps - all this is assuming it's the hideous cotton (or worse - lycra) jersey things that you can pick up at lots of traders markets.

I won't embarrass the sellers by naming them, but they have the hose in large baskets - they do two types - one that looks knitted (but are a modern fine knit, and as bad as the jersey ones), and one that are just stockings, basically. I wonder how many men would carry on earing them if they knew they actually are modern stockings :lol:


I think they found some knitted tubes on the Mary Rose that were possibly stockings or leg/arm warmers :shock: so that is 1546?

There was a huge export market for bits of cloth and old shoes to the continent which is why there are so few finds of these in the Tudor period also compounded by the fact that they started tipping their rubbish outside the cities so it all gets mixed up and cannot be dated.

Kentwell would probably tolerate these stockings for a later period on (lower) middling sorts (middle class personas), i.e. not directly in the public gaze like the gentry or well dressed merchants but rich enough to have them unlike the lower sorts.

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:44 pm
by Neibelungen

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:12 pm
by Annis
Tuppence wrote:
Out of interest what style should knitted hose be, and when do they first come in?

I know they are out for WOTR but as am applying to do Kentwell though it best to ask while the issue is being raised.

Sophia


I have little data on when they first appear (off hand), although they're def around by the mid 16th c.

the best thing to do style wise is check out paul meekins - he does ones that are absolutely perfect.

Would these be acceptable to Kentwell or the Tudor Group, do you know?


I have no idea on Kentwell, although if Annis wears them I suspect they allow them ( :roll: ), but the tudor group would probably tell you know once they'd picked themselves up of the floor from laughing!

(ps - all this is assuming it's the hideous cotton (or worse - lycra) jersey things that you can pick up at lots of traders markets.

I won't embarrass the sellers by naming them, but they have the hose in large baskets - they do two types - one that looks knitted (but are a modern fine knit, and as bad as the jersey ones), and one that are just stockings, basically. I wonder how many men would carry on earing them if they knew they actually are modern stockings :lol:


:oops: They are made of cotton, not elasticity so i had to make braid garters. They were so much better than the woollen ones they had which were drab, dull colours.

If you complain about those, you should see my first pair, 98% cotton and 2% lycra, eek!

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:43 pm
by lidimy
ouch annis! and i thought i was bad :lol:
*whistles while trying to hide my dodgy 'satin'*

lol

lidi :D

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:35 pm
by Paul Allen

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:12 pm
by Jenn
At Kentwell or anywhere else I would be much more worried in an authentic sense you understand rather than anything else about Paul's legs than Annis's since so much more of them are on display. Annis despite being a hard worker is always fairly modest and doesn't go about flashing a great deal of her legs to all and sundry - so we never really get to see her legs..and in my gentry gear I could wear bright pink stripey socks (and once did because i forgot to take them off and then couldn't bend once I had my bodies, fartingale etc on to do so and since I had been wearing them for a couple of days I wasn't going to ask anyone else to do so) and no one ever knew except me and I did feel really guilty though and I promise I will never ever do it again.

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:23 pm
by MedicKitten
my nether hose on the other hand are wool kilt-hose from a scottish shop. As my skirts, like Annis' cover my entire legs, even when i'm kirtled up you cant really see more than my lower ankle and the top of my foot. If its hot out we usually just dont wear them anyway.
I do know that NO RIBBING is allowed in knit stockings...and that men's hose should really ideally be OPAQUE!!! there are some things we just dont need to see!

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:29 am
by Tuppence
Kentwell would probably tolerate these stockings for a later period on (lower) middling sorts (middle class personas), i.e. not directly in the public gaze like the gentry or well dressed merchants but rich enough to have them unlike the lower sorts.


Then my estimation of kentwell just dive bombed, and my estimation of ECWS (or the RA at least) just sky rocketed.

And if you're going to allow those, why not allow theatrical costumes, because to be honest, 'theatrical' gets an undeserved slagging sometimes. whereas for the cotton things it's entirely deserved.

They are made of cotton, not elasticity so i had to make braid garters. They were so much better than the woollen ones they had which were drab, dull colours.

If you complain about those, you should see my first pair, 98% cotton and 2% lycra, eek!


Sorry, but what's the diff??

They're both firmly, and undeniably WRONG.

OK, lycra wasn't around till the thirties or forties (19, that is). But cotton fabric wasn't around in the 16th c either. So again, where's the diff?????

if you're gonna go with those things, and if it doesn't matter cos they can't be seen, why not just nip down m&s for a nice pair of tights. cos that's basically what they are - just the single legged variety. (point of fact, they're really old fashioned girls school stockings.)

is always fairly modest and doesn't go about flashing a great deal of her legs to all and sundry - so we never really get to see her legs..


which matters because.....???

presumably that means she can't fall over? or never walks up a hill or stairs, with someone below her, or does any of the other myriad things that might make her legs visible.

my legs aren't visible in my C17th kit, but they're still correctly attired. otherwise why bother getting the top bit right? you could use the same arguemtn to allow velvet corsets for peasantry, and nylon shifts (although anyone who'd want a nylon shift'd desever it :D ).
my nether hose on the other hand are wool kilt-hose from a scottish shop. As my skirts, like Annis' cover my entire legs, even when i'm kirtled up you cant really see more than my lower ankle and the top of my foot.



hooray - so somebody can get it right :D :D :D :D

after all, it's not that hard......


I think they found some knitted tubes on the Mary Rose that were possibly stockings or leg/arm warmers so that is 1546?


sorry - what's this info for?? looks like you're using it as an argument for those cotton things. (if not apologies for reading it wrong.)

if you are, sorry but doesn't wash. hand knitted hose look absolutely nothing like the cotton stockings.

and I never thought I'd say it, in terms of clothing, but nice one ECWS for being ahead of the crowd in the authenty stakes!!![/quote]

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:07 am
by Lord High Everything Esle
Tuppence wrote:
Kentwell would probably tolerate these stockings for a later period on (lower) middling sorts (middle class personas), i.e. not directly in the public gaze like the gentry or well dressed merchants but rich enough to have them unlike the lower sorts.


Then my estimation of kentwell just dive bombed, and my estimation of ECWS (or the RA at least) just sky rocketed.

And if you're going to allow those, why not allow theatrical costumes, because to be honest, 'theatrical' gets an undeserved slagging sometimes. whereas for the cotton things it's entirely deserved.

I think they found some knitted tubes on the Mary Rose that were possibly stockings or leg/arm warmers so that is 1546?


sorry - what's this info for?? looks like you're using it as an argument for those cotton things. (if not apologies for reading it wrong.)

if you are, sorry but doesn't wash. hand knitted hose look absolutely nothing like the cotton stockings.
quote]


Hi Debs
Taking your argument a little bit further we should not have modern woven wool clothing. Is everything you wear hand spun, hand woven, hand dyed and hand sewn?

The reference to the Mary Rose "sock" was to give a date for knitted stockings and not in support for any other alternative.

Of course we should strive for authenticity but 100% is not affordable for the great majority of re-enactors. A bit like road pricing - only the rich have liberty to do as they please.

Perhaps I should have qualified my reference to stockings at Kentwell. What I said probably only applies to New Participants. Old stagers would be expected to have, and would strive for, a higher level of authenticity.

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:27 am
by Jenn
Tuppence - I think if you read my post carefully you can see that's not what I meant I am of course concerned with everyone getting it right within the confines of possibility/cost(see previous discussions on velvet for example). I would interested to read your suggestions as to what we can do to ensure that everyone does get it right
I can assure you again that everyone who takes part at kentwell does work towards high standards of authenticity -(but it an ongoing process and you have to remember there are 700/800 participants)

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:36 am
by Lord High Everything Esle
Debs
Please don't think I'm angry with you. I really value your advice and input on these matters. I just think that you might be excluding newcomers to the hobby by being so precise. Of course dedicated old-stagers like myself should be getting it right by now.

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:16 am
by Jenn
of course it's an early an early year then it's a matter entirely!
But this year is a proper Elizabethan year so it's knitted hose etc

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:53 am
by Paul Allen
Well, I propose to stick to the Elizabethan period, at least initially, so I suppose I can have knitted or woven hose, judging by the references provided earlier. Everyone's talking about knee-length hose, but the art suggests thigh- and even waist-length should be possible (e.g. Nicholas Hilliard's miniature supposed to be of the Earl of Essex and one of the Earl of Dorset, wearing trunk-hose without canions). I'm inclined to go for long jobs, if I can get them - which looks like being something of a Quest!

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:34 pm
by John Waller
And remember machine knit hose in wool and silk were made during the Elizabethean / early Stuart period before William Lee packed his bags and took his knitting frames to France. He was refused patents by Liz 1 and James 1 to protect the hand knitting industry and eventually got the message. There is a museum in Notts that has a working frame that I am told is sometimes used to make socks for demonstration purposes - perhaps someone could ask about making hose? My local musuem also has one but sadly it doesn't work.