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Lord High Everything Esle
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Postby Lord High Everything Esle » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:55 pm

The year - 1584


Will/Dave, the Jolly Box Man and Barber Surgeon

"Physicians of all men are most happy; what good success soever they have, the world proclaimeth, and what faults they commit the earth coverest." Frances Quarles (1592-1644) Nicocles

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Postby Annis » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:06 pm

If you tell me where i can get 'authentic' hose from for a reasonable price then fine, but i havent seen any locally.

No one has got close to my legs, and I personally dont let anyone near them, to even notice.


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Postby Nigel » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:01 pm

dEFINE A REASONABLR PRICE ?

We pay c 15-20 a pair for wool and linen

The type you describe have just been banned by the Roundhead assocation


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby Annis » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:02 pm

I wouldnt pay that much because I can't afford it.


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Postby Hraefn » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:17 pm

Hats... for your autho knitted caps Kirsty Buckland is the main choice, and isn't owning one a legal requirement in Lizzies day? www.qualitycaps.co.uk

For yer tall felt copotain or other felt hats try www.kittyhats.co.uk

Fabric covered hats not a clue but you could get a felt and cover it youself.

Stockings either hand knitted from Mr Meekins or Quatermasterie alternativley make up some cross/bias cut wool cloth ones, patterns in The Medieval Tailors Assistnt and Tudor Tailor (Some of the frame knitted ones from the period are 24 stitches to the inch ,difficult to do by hand. Dunno if this place still has working frames www.rfkm.org ) There is also the reprint of a european cutting book of the late 16thC but the name escapes me

Hraefn



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Postby Nigel » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:21 pm

Annis wrote:I wouldnt pay that much because I can't afford it.


so make your own or go bare legged don't wear something which is wrong. We expect people in our group to ahve shoes or go bare foot its not hard

Taking your argument a little bit further we should not have modern woven wool clothing. Is everything you wear hand spun, hand woven, hand dyed and hand sewn

Why do folks invaraibly defending dodgy kit use this arguement ? As always I fail to see its relevance

oh and Dave just for the record the majority of DEBS' ecw clothing is hand woven hand dyed and hand sewn :D

Alos I dont think cost comes into it re excluding new people our hobby is simply put an expensive one and anybody who lies about that is doing a potential memeber a disservice.


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby Annis » Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:05 pm

I dont understand what fabric you're ment to use to make stockings, is it wool cloth or worsted cloth?

If you have ever been to Kentwell, and in my honest opinion, you would know it has it's own weather climates, it's either very hot or very cold. In fact, Easter was warmer than May day, which was FREEZING, and I was in the dairy which is usually pretty cold anyway and i was NOT going to let go of my stockings.

You say you pay £15-20 on a pair of stockings, but tell me, how long have they lasted?

Quote:
"Why do folks invaraibly defending dodgy kit use this arguement ? As always I fail to see its relevance"

I'm sorry, Nigel, but we are living in the 21st Century, which in the textile industry has moved on considorably since the 16th century. Things are now made differently, its all about the demand of consumers and quickly producing stuff, therefore, products made by hand are going to be bl**dy expensive and so we have to make do with what we can get our hands on and what we can spend our disposable income on, even though it may not be 100% authentic. (In my opinion, to get the Tudor period authentic, you need to be living in the Tudor period)

I have never seen anyone selling hand woven and spun cloth before, and im not saying that I expect it to be available in shops. It would be a very time consuming job and so the end product price is bound to be sky high, and not everybody can afford that.

What part of your answer has affected me the most is that you hint at our clothes as being dodgy. I'm sorry, but I don't think you have a right to say such a thing, our clothes are checked by skilled costumiers or people who are very knowledgable on the subject. If they find our clothes dodgy then they would tell us.


Annis the A-level textile student.

P.S. that hand woven cloth, was it made on an authentic loom?


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Postby Lord High Everything Esle » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:22 pm

Nigel wrote:
Alos I dont think cost comes into it re excluding new people our hobby is simply put an expensive one and anybody who lies about that is doing a potential memeber a disservice.


Nigel. Tell me honestly what you wore to your first event?

In the 30 years? you have been re-enacting how many of those have you worn fully authentic clothing?


Will/Dave, the Jolly Box Man and Barber Surgeon



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Postby Jenn » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:33 pm

Annis- don't worry about stockings too much at the moment - you can talk to the people who wrote both the books that Nigel recommended at the open days as well lots of other people who know more than anyone should about wool and come up with a definite answer then.
Since there are no really major changes to our costume from last year this might be the year to look at things like stockings, better petticoats etc
We should thank Debs and Nigel for having highlighted the fact that although this is covered in the costume notes perhaps in need to be done in more depth
Nigel - perhaps you should consider the age and experience of the person that you are talking to before you address them in terms which in an email appear to be quite aggressive.



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Postby Nigel » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:50 pm

Here goers this is long and I hope it makes sense am in the middle of year end so am a bit tired

"I dont understand what fabric you're ment to use to make stockings, is it wool cloth or worsted cloth?"

Any light weight wool will do such as Kersey or flannel, or linen. (from debs) Worsted or wool will do, though wool's softer worsted's harder wearing.

"You say you pay £15-20 on a pair of stockings, but tell me, how long have they lasted? "

Well Il know of one of my pairs in use that was made in 1999 currently on their thirrd owner and Debs is wearing a pair she made in 1996 so in short they last. A lot depends on how you look after them and basic things like keeping your toe nails trimmed. To give you an idea Debs sells in excess of 100 pairs a year in wool linen and silk.

"I'm sorry, Nigel, but we are living in the 21st Century, which in the textile industry has moved on considorably since the 16th century."

In many cases backwards given the quality of most fabrics and I don't understrand your point is this an arguement for using any modern fabric you wish ?

"What part of your answer has affected me the most is that you hint at our clothes as being dodgy. I'm sorry, but I don't think you have a right to say such a thing,

Why not, its a public forum and by making a post you asked for an opinion on something which is wrong not dodgy but wrong.There is nothing wrong with the construction of these items they are simply wrong for the time period you use them in.


" our clothes are checked by skilled costumiers or people who are very knowledgable on the subject. If they find our clothes dodgy then they would tell us."

Until now I was referring to the hose alone, so I do not understand where your inference about the rest of your clothes was drawn from.

Ok let me look at the evidence for my assertion that I think your clothes are dodgy (one I have not made) but you asked so I will reply from my experience of Kentwell which is limited to knowing a few folks who go and selling a lot of fabric to particiapants and to listening to Debs talk costume with a number of particiapants .

At the top end your kit is bang on and well done for that BUT by allowing wrong items such as these hose it starts to weaken the whole thing for me. I have also sold metres of fabric to people going to Kentwell which was incorrect for the use they intended to put it to.
Why? Well I warned them it was wrong and they replied with such comments as "oh well its only for lining" etc. I also know that your "skilled costumiers" have banned things which were right and allowed construction methods whicha re wrong. So that's my evidence - admittedly all anecdotal - but you asked

Dave I looked a sight for the first 10 years or so then I started doing research, becoming a pain in the butt about getting it right, and making sure everybody knew it! I still review my kit every year and reject things that are wrong. But I would argue its cheaper in the long run to purchase the right stuff in the first place, than to say 'oh, I know your kit is wrong but we will allow it just to let you take part' is pandering of the worst type, in my opinion.


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby Lord High Everything Esle » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:45 pm

Nige and Debs

I really do admire you both. You are a shining example for us all. I think that you help me make my point in that we should strive to improve all the time.

You have made me think about my kit for Kentwell. Gwen and I are going this year. Proper hose are top of my buying list now since I aim to portray the role of a merchant. (So no change there then!!)

We all have our priorities. I have been aquiring and making suitable account books - rebound facsimiles and bound ledgers (So no change there then!!). Others will think that armour and swords are their priority and will spend the majority of their budget on them because they see that as the main point of their presentation.

However, reading some of the posts, my fear is that you will put off new people to the hobby by setting the entry standard higher than their budget *So no change there then!!)

Dave/Will, not at the year end but in the middle of budgetting. Now where did I put that crystal ball?


Will/Dave, the Jolly Box Man and Barber Surgeon



"Physicians of all men are most happy; what good success soever they have, the world proclaimeth, and what faults they commit the earth coverest." Frances Quarles (1592-1644) Nicocles

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Postby MedicKitten » Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:27 pm

he art suggests thigh- and even waist-length should be possible (e.g. Nicholas Hilliard's miniature supposed to be of the Earl of Essex and one of the Earl of Dorset, wearing trunk-hose without canions).


Um...yes. And it can look quite...er...interesting. For an EXCELLENT depiction of just HOW indecent this can look, go here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/robroy/176561133/

Its one of our beloved Kentwellies wearing VERY VERY VERY short trunkhose.


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Postby Nigel » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:25 am

Thanks Dave :oops:

I wouldnt say that esp for Kentwell when you get a run in to sort your kit out as I understand it ?
I look at 4 major periods of kit and I admit some are easier than others and every year something gets up graded most recently my ACW hat ok one from uk replaced by immacualte one from the US,

As I said before its often in the long run cheaper to buy it right first as I know thinking of the thousands I must have wasted over the years.

Oh Annis if you're interested Debs does a wholesale deal (for small multiple orders) and also offers student discount. Or if you contact her Iam sure she would help you make a pair


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby Paul Allen » Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:09 pm

MedicKitten wrote:Its one of our beloved Kentwellies wearing VERY VERY VERY short trunkhose.


The picture I see is of a chap with a cod-piece; what's indecent about that? :shock:
If he didn't have one and his own piece were clearly limned against his hose, that would be a different matter! :twisted:

The importan question is, are his hose authentic and where can I get a pair like them?


Paul

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Postby Annis » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:16 pm

Nothing wrong with the codpiece, its the actual hose itself, very short strips of fabric (i can't remember the name) He told us he would save them for weekends only, children visited on the weekdays.


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Postby Nigel » Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:21 am

Jenn wrote:Nigel - perhaps you should consider the age and experience of the person that you are talking to before you address them in terms which in an email appear to be quite aggressive.


I wouldnt say that at all

Given you appear to be one of their costume people why do you allow these itmes to be worn perhaps you can shed some light on the whole process ?


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby Paul Allen » Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:57 pm

Annis wrote:Nothing wrong with the codpiece, its the actual hose itself, very short strips of fabric (i can't remember the name)


Are they pansid slops?


Paul



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Postby Annis » Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:58 pm

Paned hose is what a style is called. So i think he's wearing the panes and not the hose!


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Postby MedicKitten » Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:25 am

Yes, I'm pretty sure that's what he did. No canions on either. And whenever he turned around they'd all flare out around his hips. ENDLESSLY amusing to the gentry, but mildly horrifying for the rest of us whenever he came to visit on station and we had to try NOT TO LAUGH...(unsuccessfully in my case). This is not precisely a fashion statement I would reccomend for school visits :twisted:


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Postby Annis » Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:47 pm

MedicKitten wrote:Yes, I'm pretty sure that's what he did. No canions on either. And whenever he turned around they'd all flare out around his hips. ENDLESSLY amusing to the gentry, but mildly horrifying for the rest of us whenever he came to visit on station and we had to try NOT TO LAUGH...(unsuccessfully in my case). This is not precisely a fashion statement I would reccomend for school visits :twisted:


Ha ha! Yeah, i remember when i first saw them, it was Easter. I hink it was after or just before i helped serve supper and there was a great many a cry from the stewards chamber and lots of thumping about. (it was him and Tamsin dancing) Then they came into the kitchen and showed off the 'hose' by jumping around.


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Stockings! Improving Costume...

Postby myladyswardrobe » Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:50 pm

I've just read this thread and have to step in to defend Kentwell Costuming/Costume Advisors of which I am one (along with Jenn).

At Kentwell we have ONE Costume Head who does an incredibly hard job co-ordinating the costume help for nearly 1000 participants (PP confirmed we have over that number!). In this enormous task, the Costume Head is helped by a small army of costume advisors. On the Open Days, when we are all checking and advising on costume we Advisors all tend to lose our voices and get extremely tired and exhausted.
Some of us also help out at the Costume Making weekend giving up our OWN sewing time for newbies and previous parts.

With that all in mind, we tend to focus on getting the basic linens (smock/shirt, coifs, aprons); and main body items (petticoats; doublet; upper hose; kirtles) as good as we can. For ALL social stratas portrayed, the standard is VERY high. Its not just the Gentry who are spot on. A lot of the working class levels and middling class are "spot on" as well.

Nether hose (i.e. stockings) we ENCOURAGE to be made from cloth but we understand that this skill is a VERY difficult one to learn. Even the Tudor Tailor points that out and explains it by photos of the stocking being made ON THE PERSON.

Try as I might, fitting to my own leg is next to impossible unless I was a member of the Cirque du Soleil. And I don’t have someone I can ask for help readily at hand.

So, that means I have to purchase stockings for Kentwell use. Just like I purchase shoes which are NOT totally hand made (but as they are Kevin Garlick, they tend to be of a high standard.)

I have used M&S cotton rich tights as those were the only stockings I could get which gave the appropriate effect.
Lately I have used stockings from http://www.sock-dreams.com which have one set of thigh high stockings in a flat knit which though they are cotton, work perfectly well for Kentwell purposes in that they, again, have the right effect.

I have seen some of the stockings on sale at the Re-enactors Markets and invariably the quality is not as good as I would like AND more importantly, they don't fit my husband. This is an important point as his legs ARE seen when he is in Gentry kit (e.g. teeny weeny upper hose!! – NOT the photo that was shown).

A passing point on females who could fall over and show off their totally inauthentic stockings - what if they ARE going "authentic" (e.g. no underwear!).
That would be embarrassing for the person and any onlookers - and more so than the thought that they are wearing a cotton/linen mix sock! But if they decide to NOT go authentic, then they are showing off modern knickers. Just as embarrassing.

How does one square that particular costuming argument????

I would CERTAINLY not like to tell a newbie or previous participant female that they absolutely HAD to be "authentic" in every way or NOT take part.

If a participant arrived in a costume-from-hell (and, yes, I have had to deal with those since I started in KW in 1993/1593!), we in Kentwell take a more enlightened approach. We recognise that the participant has at least put the effort in to making the item and we then work out ways to make the garment come closer to the Kentwell standard. If this is not possible, someone will be able to lend a costume.

We would not send someone home on the basis of their costume, however low a standard.

Regarding the stockingette from Halfords. I haven’t seen this at Kentwell yet and it sounds horrible. But I shall reserve judgement when I see it (Annis – may I see your stockings at the next OD???) :?

Regards


Gentry/Tailor/Needlelace Maker - Kentwell.
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Postby Sophia » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:02 pm

Bess,

When do us potential newbies get to hear if we have been accepted and what we are doing (I emailed my details before Xmas)?

Also when can we realistically start on costume - I know the year is 1584 and am hoping to do something middle class/lower gentry (want to display my sewing skills as this is something I am happy talking about though obviously will go where I am put). I am about to start revising mine and Peter's WOTR kit so need to have an idea of time scales.

Also, need to organise fittings for short hose (which I need for both periods) and a pair of bodies as it is a later year.

I know this is probably a bit previous and the poor Kentwell team haven't had time to sort things out, but my shcedule this Spring is fairly hellish (first WOTR event at Easter).

All the best,

Sophia :D



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Postby Tamsin Lewis » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:20 pm

When do us potential newbies get to hear if we have been accepted and what we are doing (I emailed my details before Xmas)?

You should be sent some stuff fairly soon. You'll then have to send off a form and come to an open day (10 or 17 March). Acceptances usually come through early April



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Postby Tamsin Lewis » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:21 pm

When do us potential newbies get to hear if we have been accepted and what we are doing (I emailed my details before Xmas)?

Hi Sophia
You should be sent some stuff fairly soon (did you send a sae?). You'll then have to send off a form and come to an open day (10 or 17 March). Acceptances usually come through early April



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Postby myladyswardrobe » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:22 pm

Hi Sophia,

When do us potential newbies get to hear if we have been accepted and what we are doing (I emailed my details before Xmas)?


Didn't realise you were thinking of applying! It will be great to meet you at long last.

I'm assuming you've already written to KW asking for Newbie Parts info? If so, then don't start to panic till first week of Feb. Then email/call/turn-up-on-doorstep asking for info! :?

We previous parts probably won't hear ANYTHING till end of Feb so don't panic at the moment.

Also when can we realistically start on costume - I know the year is 1584 and am hoping to do something middle class/lower gentry (want to display my sewing skills as this is something I am happy talking about though obviously will go where I am put). I am about to start revising mine and Peter's WOTR kit so need to have an idea of time scales.


Start ALL your underlayers now. Of course you are banking on the hope that you are accepted though it is rare for someone NOT to be accepted at all! The main issue is whether you will be accepted for the role you want. To help with that, make sure you know precisely what you want to do (whether its gentry/upper middle class) and what you will do WITHIN that role. Its helps in persuading PP to let you be that role - especially where gentry is concerned. Also, have a back up role (lower status one) to offer as well.

Also, need to organise fittings for short hose (which I need for both periods) and a pair of bodies as it is a later year.

I know this is probably a bit previous and the poor Kentwell team haven't had time to sort things out, but my shcedule this Spring is fairly hellish (first WOTR event at Easter).


We are all in the same boat. I have two 1584 gowns to make (one for me and one for an 11 year old girl who started last year). I also have some paid work come my way so deadlines for that too.

Unless you really feel you need a pair of bodies, you can "cheat" a bit and make a boned kirtle. That way if you end up lower than gentry/upper middle class, you won't have wasted any time.

Make sure you have the Open Days fixed in your calendar as well - don't know what the dates are at the moment but can find out for you.

Hope that helps.


Gentry/Tailor/Needlelace Maker - Kentwell.

www.myladyswardrobe.com

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Re: Stockings! Improving Costume...

Postby Annis » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:33 pm

myladyswardrobe wrote:Regarding the stockingette from Halfords. I haven’t seen this at Kentwell yet and it sounds horrible. But I shall reserve judgement when I see it (Annis – may I see your stockings at the next OD???) :?


My friend's dad wear stockings made of stockingette (obviously I'm not going to mention names)
And yes, sure, you can view my stockings if you wish!

Annis x


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Postby Sophia » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:48 pm

Bess,

The Open Day dates would be very good as will need to organise Peter (my husband) to drive me up for them.

On roles - my primary interest is Costume, secondary interest is cooking. Can also make bread.

Ideally I would like to be doing something with sewing, body linens or outer garments. Have just been given a reproduction lap loom made by Miel and will also be making tabby ribbons, initially in linen and hopefully later in silk.

Some of my existing handmade linen shifts are square necked with side gores as I tend my WOTR stuff is for the latter end of the period (we are gunners and consequently have the money to be fashionable, some of my sources are Flemish). What I need to know about are things like ruffs, partlets, doublets, petticoats (with or without bodice?), etc.. Already have a late C15th flat fronted kirtle pattern which can be adapted (just a matter of moving seams around and adjusting accordingly).

Also for outer layers need to have an idea of status so I can get right colours (many of the wools I have in stock are reasonably high status), do any necessary dying, etc.

All the best,

Sophia :D



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Postby Libby » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:51 pm

Hi Nigel / Tuppence

Only vaguely related to this thread but I noticed you both make claims for the very high standards of your group(s?). I've been vaguely looking around for a second group to join for a couple of years now and have so far been put off by all the groups I have looked at when I look at their websites and see in their blurb an apparent toleration for cross-dressing / modern spectacles / hearing aids / pushchairs or initially low standards of costume.

Oh, by the way I do know the Tudor group is way beyond those standards but I was wondering if there are any others. I'm not sure they'd have me anyway, they look really scary on their website.

Can you please let me know what your group is, or recommend one I could investigate, as I'm starting to run out of ideas. My only real criteria apart from wishing to avoid the problems described above is that it must be pre 20th century and involve living history, as I'm not that interested in hitting people. Oh and I prefer to portray lower status people - much more fun.

cheers

Libby



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Postby Tamsin Lewis » Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:29 pm

Open days are 10 and 17 March



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Postby Sophia » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:03 pm

Many thanks for that Tamsin.

All the best,

Sophia :D

P.S. I sent my details in by e-mail as suggested on Website, I hope this is OK.




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