Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

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Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Tod » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:55 pm

I got a very nice breast plate at the ILHF from Ryall Armour. He is also going to make me a gorget (he had one but it was too small). I need a helmet, can any one point me in the direction of some good pictures? I like burgonets (spelling?) but think they are later as I'm looking at 1513.



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:06 pm

Bellows face sallets were the fashion of the time-
Image
Image

Earliest burgonet form was the "casquatel"-
Image

Proto-morions are comfy-
Image


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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Tod » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:48 pm

Did the casquatel ever appear in GB? I think I need to buy you dinner and pick your brains.



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:55 pm

Can't think off the top of my head but German troops were stationed over here (Henry VIII had all sorts of nationalities employed about ten miles away from where I am sat now for the Rough Wooing etc) and it was a common hat for them to wear so it is plausible.


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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Tod » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:57 pm

Great, and you are in the right part of Scotland. Now to find a maker.



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:20 pm

Possible casquatel on an Irishman dated 1520s-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Durer-Irish-16thC.jpg
(Lots of Irish and Scots mixing it up to fight in each others' wars at the time too)


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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Tod » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:10 pm

Looks like the photo to me. Unless the scale for their feet and the swords is the same that is one hell of a sword. That one in your pic looks like a repro. any idea who made it?



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby steve stanley » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:22 pm

Other option is a skull-cap under a bonnet?


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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Tod » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:26 pm

Too low status :wink:



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby steve stanley » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:35 pm

Tod wrote:Too low status :wink:


Bloated plutocrat oppressor of the prolitariat........ :D


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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Type16 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:56 pm

I think that if Tod is going 'Tudor' he needs to get the feel of their origins by holidaying on Anglesey.
Seriously, quite a few people around central island have the 'look' of the contemporary paintings.Sun, sea & caesium.


Archers have a way of making their point
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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby cloudy-cola-corp » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:18 pm

if your still looking for a maker i know adam (can't for the life of me thing of his surname i will find out) he was at ILHF around the middle of the first or second row from the entrance. he makes mostly 17th century armour and he's done some restoration work for stratford armouries i think. He's warwickshire area, if you would like i can try and get hold of his number or something, and he might be able to make something like that casquatle?



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Tod » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:37 pm

I know Adi from the SK. He has done me a quote but I like to get comparisons.




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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Tod » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:33 am

Have you used them? I couldn't see any helmets on the web site.



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Andy R » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:13 pm

Tod wrote:Too low status :wink:


bit like the rest of you then
(haw haw haw)

Joking aside, be interested to see what you get when you get it.

Good luck with the project..!


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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby cloudy-cola-corp » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:34 pm

i haven't used them but i did have a fair talk to one of the guys in october and had a look at the arm and leg harnesses that he had which where very nice . and he said that it was all battle ready so long as you said that it was for full contact if you ordered anything. and no harm in asking for a quote.



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Tod » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:52 pm

No offence but this is likely to be a big spend and there is a huge difference between some thing looking nice and being right, plus plate type armour and helmets are very different.
Does any one know who made the one in Phil's post, the one with the red cloth background?



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Andy R » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:06 pm

Hi Tod,

Mark Vickers may be a guy you want to talk to as he specialises in 16th century armour (or so I believe)

With regards to the casquatel, what are you looking at portraying exactly?

I have only seen that style of casquatel in use by German mercenaries, and something similar (but not the same) in use by later Irish.

Ta,
Andy


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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby steve stanley » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:15 pm

One thing to remember....Most of the extensive arms buying/making went to the Invasion of France...The 'Home defence' force could well have had a large proportion of older styles...........All depends exactly what Tod is portraying............(As Andy said.....)


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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Andy R » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:27 pm

steve stanley wrote:All depends exactly what Tod is portraying............(As Andy said.....)


This is a modern rendition of The Bastard Heron based on contemporary information

Image

But this is an interesting helmet from the Flodden museum (no idea on provenance)
Attachments
flodden_hat.jpg


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby steve stanley » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:32 pm

Yeah,got that one....That,and other secondary sources would suggest Local arms and armour would still be very WOTR style until you get quite high up the social ladder...?


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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Tod » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:37 pm

This isn't just for the Flodden project because in the long run I've got to justify a hell of a spend.
I intend to portray a lower noble. Because of my age I've had military experience in Europe. Lowland Scottish or English.
I've seen the Flodden display and it isn't great but is better than some places. I have no idea where they got their info. from. I know there were Germans and French in Scotland around that time. I've got the three Osprey books for that period and a stack of others on Flodden, James IV and early Henry VIII. I have no idea how many hours I've spent on the web so far but it's a lot. I think for Flodden with the other armour I'm getting together I need a full helmet either like the red one in Phils first posting or a sparrow beak. But if I can find a reference or contemporary burgonet style I will go for that. I've found one drawing so far, other that that there are some in the Osprey books - so that is a matter of trying to get in touch with the author/artist to get his references. If there are none I'll stick with what I can prove.
Ref's so far Scottish Renaissance Armies 1513-1550 (Osprey 167) plate A. Arms and Armour page 29 Holinsheds Chronicle. Later?).

Along with this I want to be able to go into the next 20 years, costume doesn't change hugely so soft kit is fine (no doubt knowing me I'll get more than I need). My armour isn't 15th century. If you have the Henry VIII's Army book front cover or plate B (Osprey 191) the two armoured men are what I'm building (so look at the helmet).
In the next three months I'll be at the Tower, Hampton Court, Wallace Colection and by the end of the year RA and MoS. Other suggestions are welcome.

If you have any info. for (around 1513) or against pointing to later for casquatel style please post references.
Thanks.



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby steve stanley » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:46 pm

Got ya!.....(having been to bookshelves)..Yes if you're looking 'Flodden +' rather than '-' the casquatel seems to make more sense....So the armour is 'almain rivet' in style rather than the actual munition stuff?...Just tell me you're not planning on a horse.......... :D


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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Andy R » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:32 pm

The Bastard Herron was a minor noble, and look at him (although he was of course a border minor noble) - mind you, look at Edmund Howard who is dressed in full tin (but arguably, NOT a minor noble)

So i take it Tod you are not loooking at a border family, but someone "better connected".

There is a difference in dress between the Scots and English at this time I believe as the different countries were embracing different continental fashions, so you may want to look at that point aswell. Some of the wood cuts of Flodden make a point of dressing the soldiers differently so you can tell which side is which.


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby steve stanley » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:37 pm

There are some which seem to show the Scots as very Landsknecht in style,while the English are base-coated and sallet-ed......... :eh:


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Send me up in Grand River

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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Jenn » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:07 pm

In general the Scots took more of their influences from the French than the English however remember the Border at this period was fairly loosely drawn and so I would expect to see a variety of styles



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Tod » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:24 pm

It's the variety that makes things interesting. Looking at the woodcuts they certainly show differences but as they were not done at the time (like a photo) and in all likelihood not done by someone who was there they can only be used as a reference for styles of the time rather than styles of people who were in the battle. However it’s the period style I want. The next problem is they are really basic and artistically poor so not a huge help.
IMO there is no set way to be dressed or armed although the level in society be the thing that sets any standards, maybe more the quality than style. I absolutely agree about the French influence but I’ve also found the influences from Germany and other parts of Europe. I am not aiming at being a Borderer as the battle wasn't all Border troops, in fact I'd go as far to say thery were the minority (as stereo typicals). What I'm trying to portray to quote Andy is some one better connected.
Back to the helmet. I've found some more early ones and ref. (secondary source) to ones in the basic style from the late 15th century. I'm yet to find primary evidence for the later so will try and get in touch with the author of the piece.



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Tod » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:47 pm

This one looks like some of the pictures I've found, any thoughts (based on evidence).
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Burgonet.jpg



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Re: Wanted pictures of early early Tudor helmets

Postby Andy R » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:26 pm

That looks more mid to late c16th.

It is very formal in it's design (by way of the burgonet we all know and love)

Could be wrong though


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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