The Relief of Leiden 1574

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Dathi
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The Relief of Leiden 1574

Post by Dathi »

Just stumbled across this picture of the Relief of Leiden, dated about 1574

http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/sk/z/sk-a-3911.z

Look at the kneeling figure in the bottom left corner. What do other people think he's wearing ? As I see baggy, parti coloured full leg hose with a robe/tunic thing as the top...

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EnglishArcher
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Re: The Relief of Leiden 1574

Post by EnglishArcher »

I see the same thing. The hose appear to be gartered at the knee.

Is there some contention about his clothing, then?
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Re: The Relief of Leiden 1574

Post by Dathi »

The painting is dated late 16th Century. The kneeling figure is very 15th Century, maybe about a 100 years earlier than the rest of the picture..?

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EnglishArcher
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Re: The Relief of Leiden 1574

Post by EnglishArcher »

The round toed shoes (with what looks like heels), flat (felted?) cap and heavily-pleated coat all suggest the 16th Century. Although the cut of the coat certainly suggests late-15th/early-16th Century.

The painting is showing the relief of the besieged Liedeners(?) and the artist may have been trying to suggest how beleaguered they were by showing them in old-fashioned, ill-fitting clothing.
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Re: The Relief of Leiden 1574

Post by Dathi »

So that 's a mix of late 15th century, turn of the century and mid 16th century.

The coat looks too short for a "Waffen rock" or a Tudor Jacket and more like the sort of thing seen earlier..

I've seen this in in later pictures where Gentry are depicted in a mixture of fashions such as this one

http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/sk/z/sk-c-2.z


The seated gent at left front and his older collegeue standing behind his right shoulder are about 30 years apart in fashion. This is the first picture where I've seen a lower class person in clothing that is very clearly well behind in fashion.

BTW The General impression looks more 15th century than late 16th. Imagine turning up dressed like that at a 3rd Quarter 16th Century event..... :D

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EnglishArcher
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Re: The Relief of Leiden 1574

Post by EnglishArcher »

You do see a similar style of coat fairly frequently in Bruegel's work; which puts it in the 1560's.

The man on the left:
http://dalfar.files.wordpress.com/2009/ ... e_snow.jpg

The man in grey, middle right; and the man in yellow middle-distance, left:
http://www.mystudios.com/art/northern/b ... utside.jpg

The man in dark blue, green hat, centre:
http://aix1.uottawa.ca/~sperrier/europe ... c01965.jpg

The gents in red, on horseback, bottom left:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 4._022.jpg


That style of coat seems to persist in one form or another for a very long time. A knee-length, loose-sleeved, gathered garment in wool is an eminently practical garment!

Overall, if I was asked, in isolation, to date that figure I'd probably say 2nd Qtr - mid-16th Century. To my eyes, there's nothing that seems overtly anachronistic.
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Re: The Relief of Leiden 1574

Post by Foxe »

What a lovely picture...so many sailors!

Anyway, how about the fellas first and third from left in this picture?

http://www.artofdrink.com/img/DavidTeni ... avern1.jpg

Or this chap?

http://www.essentialvermeer.com/dutch-p ... eniers.jpg

Al wearing garments similar to the guy in question, and all of them 17th century.
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Dathi
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Re: The Relief of Leiden 1574

Post by Dathi »

So. We have a load of pictures that are dated mid 16th Century with a "look" that would normally be described as 15th Century peasant at a rural level.

The peasant wedding is interesting,as there is one single figure dressed in mid 16th Century style seated on the far right in a sea of full leg hose.....

The last Tenier image looks like a soldiers coat worn over full leg hose !

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Re: The Relief of Leiden 1574

Post by wulfenganck »

Dathi wrote:So. We have a load of pictures that are dated mid 16th Century with a "look" that would normally be described as 15th Century peasant at a rural level.

The peasant wedding is interesting,as there is one single figure dressed in mid 16th Century style seated on the far right in a sea of full leg hose.....

The last Tenier image looks like a soldiers coat worn over full leg hose !
Hmm, I'm not that much into second half of 16th century clothing style, but from what I have seen, it's not such a surprise.
Quite frankly I wouldn't say that the kneeling guy from your first posting looks so very much 15th-century'ish at all.
That sort of hat is worn from at least the last quarter of the 15th century throughout the 16th as well; neither the shoes nor the hoses resemble 15th century fashion. So it all comes down to the jacket he's wearing (it seems to be a "Schecke" or maybe a "Schaube" in german, I don't know the english word for that, sorry).
But then again, you'll find that sort of garment quite often in 16th century illustrations (as have been pointeds out). It's a very typical outer garment throughout a period of some 200 years, only with changes in detail, but the more general style seems to be consistent.

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EnglishArcher
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Re: The Relief of Leiden 1574

Post by EnglishArcher »

Dathi,

Do you have any 15th century images of similar coats to compare?
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