Battle of Bannockburn 2007

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zauberdachs
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Post by zauberdachs »

gregory23b wrote:Am sorely tempted to get some 14thc kit, what are teh key differences between early 14tch and mid 14thc?
I'd say the key big ones are: split hose, long shirts and surcoats.

There's a big difference between early 14th century and later 14th though.
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Post by Lady Wolfshead »

Just been reading through the previous thread and wanted to check what happened this year regarding authenticity and weapons checks.

I know nobody checked the authenticity of my kit and that the group I was with checked their weapons for burrs but was it done formally.

Just needing a simple answer, not looking to start a discussion on either authenticity or safety! :)

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Post by guthrie »

Broadly speaking, your looking at, from early 1300 to late 1300, changes in style and cut and suchlike.
So single leg hose creep further up to the top of the leg.
Shoes probably had different buckles and fastenings.
Belts became broader, and more fittings.
Coifs became less common.
Tunics became shorter and tighter fitting, and hose pointing moved from the Braes to the Doublet.


Basically, you can make up a pair of single leg hose easily enough, and a tunic. Add that to a sunhat/ coif, and normal unadorned shoes, a thin leather belt and simpler purse, (none of these multiply bulgy brass decorated ones) and you'll be fine.

As for making the event over 4 days. 4 days of fighting might get a bit dull, but 3 is doable. I suppose it depends if it could be scheduled to coincide with a bank holiday, we don't have any in Scotland in june or july.

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Post by zauberdachs »

Lady Wolfshead wrote:I know nobody checked the authenticity of my kit and that the group I was with checked their weapons for burrs but was it done formally.
I think there was a quick check on the first day.
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Post by gregory23b »

I am (reasonabl) au fait with mid to late 14thc, hose breech etc, but something was nagging at me that earlier might be noticeably different, more akin to the later 13thc, one doesn't like to assume. Thanks Guthers.

I like the mid 14thc because there are still the hose/chausses attached to the underbreeks, hoods and all - hence my question, is it similar enough for me to use mid 14thc for say Bannockburn?, better phrasing I think, mm.

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Post by zauberdachs »

I guess as long as you avoid buttons and large amounts of dagging it shouldn't be too different.
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Post by guthrie »

AS far as I am aware, some people were wearing single leg hose well into the 15th century, although they would usually be peasants or suchlike.

So if you have single leg hose, and braes, fine, go ahead. It's the tunic that covers them most of the time, and that is somewhat specialised. For the early 14th, you want it knee length, some pouching over the belt (The MTA was quite insistent on this, as is the Tournee kit guide, and indeed most period illustrations I have seen show this), and it can be slit in fron, back, sides, or not at all, as mine is.
Also the arms want to be sewn quite tight below the elbow, unlike earlier tunics which were loose all the way down the arm.

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Post by zauberdachs »

guthrie wrote: For the early 14th, you want it knee length,
Ah, does this not depend what status you are?

My understanding is that knee length is the minimum length for this period. Knee length is for young people, agricultural workers and craftsmen etc. Older people and people of higher status had longer tunics.
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Post by Lady Wolfshead »

zauberdachs wrote:
Lady Wolfshead wrote:I know nobody checked the authenticity of my kit and that the group I was with checked their weapons for burrs but was it done formally.
I think there was a quick check on the first day.
Thanks. So can I assume that we'd want a more formal check done of weapons next year?

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Post by zauberdachs »

Aye and a proper check for the minimum level of safety kit would be good. At least helmet, gloves and jack I would say.
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Post by gregory23b »

"AS far as I am aware, some people were wearing single leg hose well into the 15th century, although they would usually be peasants or suchlike. "

Yes, 'open hose' but high up the waist, pointed to doublet etc and not always for peasants, you can see them used quite late by otherwise normal people and also it is hard to tell from some images what hose they are wearing due to the drawing and any covering garment.

I was more curious as to the doublet-less aspect of it all, I like it.

So I shall look into 14thc hose done up to the waistand of long baggy breech, over tunic (cote hardie)? Shoes, will look into.

Do they have archers at Bannockburn?

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Post by guthrie »

One or two archers, yes, but depending on who you talk to they either got shunted out the way by the English knights who were keen for battle, or else chased off the field by the Scottish cavalry.

The thing about circa 1300 as opposed to circa 1470 is that it is looser, there is more material to get in the way, but it is still quite warm, and you can move easily enough.

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Post by Colin MacDonald »

Note that while most illustrations are of long tunics...

Image

...the Carlisle Charter seal shows short tunics (specifically baggy tunics or sleeved hooded cloaks) on Jocks, over single leg hose, so this is pretty in-period as well...

Image

Of course, a long tunic will hide dual leg hose, so the only combination you'd want to avoid would be a short tunic exposing dual leg hose (on the chap left of centre above). But honestly, even I, filthy pedant that I am, would just view that as a 'bit out of period for 1314', by a couple of decades. Eh, it's all good.

On the subject of equipment checks, I'd draw your attention to the verdict in Vowles vs Evans (and the WRU) which (in England-and-Walesland) sets a precedent that even unpaid amateur volunteers can be liable for failures in any duty of care that they choose to accept. I don't know of any equivelant case law in Scotland, but it's best not to be involved in creating any.

I'm all for equipment checks, but would just say that if you're going to do it, then please do be prepared to do a proper job of it, because you may be (successfully) sued up the wazoo if you let Shoogly McCleaver slip onto the field and he dices someone.

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Post by Lady Cecily »

Colin,

Do you have to scare me with pictures of my husband on public websites?
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Post by gregory23b »

Thanks Colin, appreciate it.

I am happy to make the proper stuff, I have a plan, at last, to have decent kit for a few periods, 12thc, mid 14thc, late 15thc, mid Tudor, mid 18thc, so far two and a half of those have been achieved - nearly.
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Post by Colin MacDonald »

Lady Cecily wrote:Do you have to scare me with pictures of my husband on public websites?
I don't strictly have to, but it's good to have a hobby. ;)

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Post by Tuppence »

if it was over say four days, as a festival type thing that might be attractive, not just in terms of trading but the event itself.
ecws events at extremes of britain (eg powderham, etc) tend to have the campsite open for seeral days either side of the actual event, so that people can spend longer there - treat it as a short break, and not have to worry about a very long journey straight after a show.

the fighting's still only on the weekend days, ususally, but they get more people cos of them feeling less pressured / rushed.

Am sorely tempted to get some 14thc kit, what are teh key differences between early 14tch and mid 14thc?
thig to remember about the 14the century is that it's a transition between the looser more flowing dressmakey styles of the earlier medival clothing, to the tightly fitted tailored styles of later medieval.

a lot depends on age - there are pics of older gentlemen still wearing long tunics and surcotes well into the 2nd half of the century.

but it was by no means fashiopnable

and the very fitted styles of the black prince etc are really a no-no for earlier.

want to look at some books on 14th c at kelmarsh too??? :lol:

sorry fopr typos - cat now on keyboard and mouse...(not the squeaky furry kind...)
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Post by gregory23b »

Will do 2d, but priority for the off season would be project X as discussed in a place far far away.
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Post by Lady Wolfshead »

Tuppence wrote:
if it was over say four days, as a festival type thing that might be attractive, not just in terms of trading but the event itself.
ecws events at extremes of britain (eg powderham, etc) tend to have the campsite open for seeral days either side of the actual event, so that people can spend longer there - treat it as a short break, and not have to worry about a very long journey straight after a show.
Good idea! :) It seems a shame that people travel up to the event and don't even get a chance to visit some of the places associated with the Wars of Independence nearby (eg. Stirling Castle, Wallace Monument, etc). Plus there is some gorgeous scenery in the area. :)

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Post by Alan_F »

Lady Wolfshead wrote:
Tuppence wrote:
if it was over say four days, as a festival type thing that might be attractive, not just in terms of trading but the event itself.
ecws events at extremes of britain (eg powderham, etc) tend to have the campsite open for seeral days either side of the actual event, so that people can spend longer there - treat it as a short break, and not have to worry about a very long journey straight after a show.
Good idea! :) It seems a shame that people travel up to the event and don't even get a chance to visit some of the places associated with the Wars of Independence nearby (eg. Stirling Castle, Wallace Monument, etc). Plus there is some gorgeous scenery in the area. :)
But it would need then to coincide with a local or national bank holiday - are there any that occur in both Scotland and England at the same time?
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Post by Lady Wolfshead »

But it would need then to coincide with a local or national bank holiday - are there any that occur in both Scotland and England at the same time?
Not necessarily, we used to take extra days off to travel to Templecombe and Tintagel and they weren't on bank holidays. All we're suggesting is that camping facilities are available on site for a little longer than the actual weekend so that re-enactors have the opportunity to stay Thurs-Mon if they wish - makes it more worthwhile for them to come up and they get to see a bit of Scotland whilst they're here.

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Post by Tuppence »

agre - it wouldn't have to co-incide with any kind of holiday (though maybe the summer hols for kids & teachers).

but have been to shows at powderham (nr exteter - for example), when the camp site was open for 10 days, with the event weekend roughly in the middle.

we (me and the friends I was with) stayed as long as poss cos we travelled from north of newcastle.

people could come for the whole ten days, just the event bit, or anything in between.

the point being that you can either make a holiday out of it, or at the very least it takes the pressure off for those with hundreds of miles to go.
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Post by RTB »

Lady Wolfshead wrote: *snip* All we're suggesting is that camping facilities are available on site for a little longer than the actual weekend so that re-enactors have the opportunity to stay Thurs-Mon if they wish - makes it more worthwhile for them to come up and they get to see a bit of Scotland whilst they're here.
We had occasion to go to the far north of Scotland and return over a weekend (with no events there). The custodian at the time was quite happy to let us stay there on the way back down. I would say if you're going to go up on the Thursday, and return on Monday, I'd ask the custodian. They can only say no.
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Post by Tuppence »

gregory23b wrote:Will do 2d, but priority for the off season would be project X as discussed in a place far far away.
I know - but it'll all be in pretty much the same books anyway, so...

:lol:
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Post by gregory23b »

fabulous

ta.

Very much looking forward to Kelmarsh.
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Post by Montsegur »

Lady Wolfshead wrote -
All we're suggesting is that camping facilities are available on site for a little longer than the actual weekend so that re-enactors have the opportunity to stay Thurs-Mon if they wish - makes it more worthwhile for them to come up and they get to see a bit of Scotland whilst they're here.


Quite agree, and our plastic site at Lanark is open Thursday to Monday. It's no great inconvenience to us since set up/break-down is within that time span anyway and I'd have thought the same would hold for any largish event. At Bannockburn, for example, it's land which is not normally in use I believe ?
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Post by Alan_F »

Montsegur wrote:Lady Wolfshead wrote -
All we're suggesting is that camping facilities are available on site for a little longer than the actual weekend so that re-enactors have the opportunity to stay Thurs-Mon if they wish - makes it more worthwhile for them to come up and they get to see a bit of Scotland whilst they're here.


Quite agree, and our plastic site at Lanark is open Thursday to Monday. It's no great inconvenience to us since set up/break-down is within that time span anyway and I'd have thought the same would hold for any largish event. At Bannockburn, for example, it's land which is not normally in use I believe ?

The land around the memorial is part of it: It's used by dog walkers and does get a large amount of neds there are nights, especially during school holidays.
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Post by Lady Wolfshead »

I think it would be important to stress that the some security would still be required if the camping was extended to Thurs-Mon.

I have nearly finished the proposal for NTS but I'd rather PM it to people for comment than post it on an open forum. So, if you would like to read it, please PM me.

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Post by Alan_F »

Lady Wolfshead wrote:I think it would be important to stress that the some security would still be required if the camping was extended to Thurs-Mon.

I have nearly finished the proposal for NTS but I'd rather PM it to people for comment than post it on an open forum. So, if you would like to read it, please PM me.

Cheers.
:)
I'd like to see it and will add my signature to it if you want.
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Post by Lady Wolfshead »

Just a quick update:

Thanks to everyone who read over the document for NTS and for your helpful suggestions. I have sent it off to Alison Corley and will let you know of any response(s) I receive.

LW
:)

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