Where is the church in reenactment?

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Brother Ranulf
Post Centurion
Posts: 961
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Canterbury

Re: Where is the church in reenactment?

Postby Brother Ranulf » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:40 am

I am surprised that no mention has been made of the Augustinian Canons Regular.

Canons were guilds of priests living together under the Rule of St Augustine, often in priories, but mainly working out on the streets and ministering to the poor, the sick and the needy. They were superficially similar to monks (I notice that the National Trust even calls them monks on its Canons Ashby website :o !) but they were certainly not the same thing. Mainly recruited from the aristocracy, they took no vows of poverty, chasity, obedience or stability; they lived lives of near-luxury; they were open to simony (the illegal sale of benefices, religious offices and special considerations); they staffed many pilgrim hospitals and infirmaries (a major example is St Bartholemew's in Smithfield, London); they staffed certain cathedrals; they preached in the streets and observed at least some of the monastic liturgy. It was canons regular who staffed the shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham.

They were fairly common in England - from the Conquest to the death of Henry II, no fewer than fifty-four houses of canons regular were established.

Their clothing was not firmly specified until 1519 and much incorrect and misleading information about them has appeared on the web and elsewhere. Unlike monks, canons used the Paternoster (rosary) since they were often away from their own church when the Holy Offices needed to be kept.

The idea that "portraying a man of the Church means largely alone" ignores the many medieval communities of friars and canons who could operate in numbers, particularly in urban settings.


Brother Ranulf

"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

ed123
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:27 pm

Re: Where is the church in reenactment?

Postby ed123 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:16 pm

The Kyle: Thank you for posting those links. Interesting stuff.

Simon: Thanks for the tips. I'm arranging to meet up with Conquest and see how they do things but I'll keep the Paladins in mind.

De Coverly: I see what you mean although, as Saracen says, it doesn't seem like an insurmountable problem. Perhaps one day there'll be a reenactment group of monks! :angel:

Brother Ranulf: Interesting to hear about the Augustinian Canons Regular I hadn't come across them, although I have come across the Rule of St Augustine before.

At the moment I'm just reading some general stuff about the Middle Ages but a couple of hours browsing the internet this evening have turned up a couple of sites that look useful. Fordham University have quite a broad selection of primary sources and other stuff. http://legacy.fordham.edu/Halsall/sbook.asp

MedievalLiturgy.com looks like it will be useful for some the liturgical stuff. Seldom have I been so glad to have a passing knowledge of Latin though.
http://www.medievalliturgy.com



guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: Where is the church in reenactment?

Postby guthrie » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:34 pm

Brother Ranulf wrote:
Canons were guilds of priests living together under the Rule of St Augustine, often in priories, but mainly working out on the streets and ministering to the poor, the sick and the needy. They were superficially similar to monks (I notice that the National Trust even calls them monks on its Canons Ashby website :o !) but they were certainly not the same thing. Mainly recruited from the aristocracy, they took no vows of poverty, chasity, obedience or stability; they lived lives of near-luxury; they were open to simony (the illegal sale of benefices, religious offices and special considerations); they staffed many pilgrim hospitals and infirmaries (a major example is St Bartholemew's in Smithfield, London); they staffed certain cathedrals; they preached in the streets and observed at least some of the monastic liturgy. It was canons regular who staffed the shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham.

Which definition explains Chaucer's Canon in his Pilgrim's progress.
The really mad thing is though that I have tried to read up on medieval religion and practises, even a number of books, and have simply never found the function and place of canons explained so well. I didn't even know that they could be found out on the streets ministering to people! Now I know I don't always remember stuff from books, but it seems to me that even when the authors know what they are writing about, they don't realise what it is that people, especially re-enactors want to know.



Thalion
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:57 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Where is the church in reenactment?

Postby Thalion » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:34 pm

Hi Brother Ranulf,

Brother Ranulf wrote:I said the Latin Grace as it would have been said in the 12th century and the vicar later challenged me for not using the correct modern version .

'
Am I correct in saying that it's:

Pater noster, qui es in cœlis; sanctificatur nomen tuum: Adveniat regnum tuum; fiat voluntas tua, sicut in cœlo, et in terra. Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie: Et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris: et ne nos inducas in tentationem: sed libera nos a malo, Quia tuum est regnum, et potestas, et Gloria, in saecula. Amen. ? As that's what we use for our pray (13th C.) Or have we gone wrong somewhere?

Regards,
Thalion


Brother of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem.

Ordinis Hospitalis Sancti Johannis Jerusalem
Ava Crux Alba

User avatar
Brother Ranulf
Post Centurion
Posts: 961
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Canterbury

Re: Where is the church in reenactment?

Postby Brother Ranulf » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:57 pm

Thalion,

All of the rosary prayers developed over time, particularly in the case of the Ave Maria. The Paternoster itself looked like this in the 13th century:

Pater Noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificétur nomen tuum, adveniat regnum tuum, fiat volúntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidiánum da nobis hódie, et dimitte nobis débita nostra, sicut et nos dimittímus debitóribus nostris; et ne nos indúcas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amén

Notice that it is shorter than your version and quotidianum is an earlier form of cotidianum (which was used later).

The Ave Maria looked like this in the 12th century:

Ave María, gratia plena, Dominus tecum, benedicta tu in muliéribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui.

In the 13th century the name of Jesus (Iesus) was added at the end and the remainder of the prayer as we know it today was added much later. I believe that the addition of the name of Jesus was linked to levels of literacy - in the 11th and 12th centuries only educated people (therefore Churchmen) would be able to understand most Latin prayers; since they were already familiar with who "the fruit of thy womb" referred to, the name was not necessary. As more lay people acquired some form of education, this kind of detail was added for clarification.

The grace before meals would look like this, starting with the sign of the cross:

In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti.

Benedic, Domine, nos et haec tua dona
quae de tua largitate sumus sumpturi
per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.


I hope this helps


Brother Ranulf



"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

Thalion
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:57 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Where is the church in reenactment?

Postby Thalion » Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:16 am

Brother Ranulf.

Thanks, you're always very helpful. And I'll definitely be remembering that, and it's thankfully shorter than the modern one!

Kindest Regards,
Thalion.


Brother of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem.

Ordinis Hospitalis Sancti Johannis Jerusalem
Ava Crux Alba

Thalion
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:57 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Where is the church in reenactment?

Postby Thalion » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:54 pm

Hi Brother Ranulf,

Brother Ranulf wrote:Thalion,

All of the rosary prayers developed over time, particularly in the case of the Ave Maria. The Paternoster itself looked like this in the 13th century:

Pater Noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificétur nomen tuum, adveniat regnum tuum, fiat volúntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidiánum da nobis hódie, et dimitte nobis débita nostra, sicut et nos dimittímus debitóribus nostris; et ne nos indúcas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amén


Got a source for this? Just so I can have some evidence behind it.

Regards,
Thalion.


Brother of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem.

Ordinis Hospitalis Sancti Johannis Jerusalem
Ava Crux Alba

Thalion
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:57 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Where is the church in reenactment?

Postby Thalion » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:54 pm

Hi Brother Ranulf,

Brother Ranulf wrote:Thalion,

All of the rosary prayers developed over time, particularly in the case of the Ave Maria. The Paternoster itself looked like this in the 13th century:

Pater Noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificétur nomen tuum, adveniat regnum tuum, fiat volúntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidiánum da nobis hódie, et dimitte nobis débita nostra, sicut et nos dimittímus debitóribus nostris; et ne nos indúcas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amén


Got a source for this? Just so I can have some evidence behind it.

Regards,
Thalion.


Brother of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem.

Ordinis Hospitalis Sancti Johannis Jerusalem
Ava Crux Alba

User avatar
Brother Ranulf
Post Centurion
Posts: 961
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Canterbury

Re: Where is the church in reenactment?

Postby Brother Ranulf » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:59 pm

The development of the rosary prayers has been covered in many books and websites and is fairly widely known; an example is this from Father Reginald Martin, O.P., a commentator in "The Rosary Light and Life" of March/April 2008:

The prayer we call the "Hail Mary" has evolved over time. The first two sentences (beginning with the angel's greeting and closing with Elizabeth's words, "blessed is the fruit of thy womb") are taken directly from the Scripture (Lk. 1:28). The name of Jesus, to identify Mary's Son, was added in the 13th Century, and the closing petitions, in which we acknowledge Mary as the Mother of God, and beg her prayers, were added in the 16th Century.


The Catholic Encyclopedia concurs:

Two Anglo-Saxon manuscripts at the British Museum, one of which may be as old as the year 1030, show that the words "Ave Maria" etc. and "benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventris tui" occurred in almost every part of the Cursus, and though we cannot be sure when these clauses were first joined together so as to make one prayer, there is conclusive evidence that this had come to pass only a very little later. . .
Not long after this (c. 1196) we meet a synodal decree of Eudes de Sully, Bishop of Paris, enjoining upon the clergy to see that the "Salutation of the Blessed Virgin" was familiarly known to their flocks as well as the Creed and the Lord's Prayer; and after this date similar enactments become frequent in every part of the Christian world, beginning in England with the Synod of Durham in 1217. . .
In the time of St. Louis (12th century) the Ave Maria ended with the words of St. Elizabeth: "benedictus fructus ventris tui"; it has since been extended by the introduction both of the Holy Name and of a clause of petition. As regards the addition of the word "Jesus," or, as it usually ran in the fifteenth century, "Jesus Christus, Amen", it is commonly said that this was due to the initiative of Pope Urban IV (1261) . . .
We meet the complete Ave as we know it now, printed in the breviary of the Camaldolese monks, and in that of the Order de Mercede c. 1514.


For the Lord's Prayer or Paternoster there is "The Evolution of the Lord's Prayer in English" by Albert S Cook - the English versions exactly mirror the current Latin version, available on the dreaded Jstor here:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/287989?seq=1

Also see this study of common religious texts in Middle English and Latin in the later medieval period:
https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/lords_prayer_1400.html (or Google "Lord's Prayer 1400")

And here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/lordpray.htm

The first part appears in this BL image of MS Harley 1770 (Latin on the left, Anglo-French on the right), starting with the capital P near bottom left. The next page is not shown, but the word "quotidianum" appears as a way of introducing the next page of text:
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... llID=19660


Brother Ranulf



"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138


Return to “1100-1500”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests