Newbie saying hi, and a question!

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Rchave
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Re: Newbie saying hi, and a question!

Postby Rchave » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:40 pm

Colin Middleton wrote: magical backup weapon


never mind.



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Grymm
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Re: Newbie saying hi, and a question!

Postby Grymm » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:45 pm

Fox wrote:I think it might be referring to Henry Barrett (1562)
….a maule of leade with a pyke of five inches longe, well stieled, sett in a staff of fyve foote of lengthe with a hooke at his gyrdell to take of and mayntayne the fighte as oure elders have donn, with handye stroaks


For what it's worth, Roger Ascham said the following:
And herein our archers of England far pass the Parthians, which for such a purpose, when they shall come to hand-strokes, hath ever ready, either at his back hanging, or else in his next fellow's hand, a leaden maul, or such-like weapon, to beat down his enemies withal.


Both these chaps are writing 100yrs+ after the archers heyday of Crecy, Poitiers & Agincourt, long enough for legends and myths of the English archer to start to take flight.

Chaucer describes his Yeoman archer in Canterbury Tales

.... A sheef of pecok arwes brighte and kene
Under his belt he bar ful thriftily,         
(Wel coude he dresse his takel yemanly:
His arwes drouped noght with fetheres lowe),
And in his hand he bar a mighty bowe.
A not-heed hadde he, with a broun visage.
Of wode-craft wel coude he al the usage.  
Upon his arm he bar a gay bracer,
And by his syde a swerd and a bokeler,
And on that other syde a gay daggere,
Harneised wel, and sharp as point of spere; ...
So sword, buckler and dagger as well as bow n arrers

Sire de St Remy who was at Agincourt describes the archers as;
'For the most part without armour except their pour points, hose rolled down to the knees and having hatchets and battle axes hanging at their waist, or long swords, some barefoot some with huvettes or capelinas(helmets) of cuir bouilli, of osier(wicker work helmet WANT!) strengthened with a cross band of iron.

Another eye witness describes them(archers) as getting stuck in with swords, hatchets, mauls, axes, becs de faucon and other weapons ... Which sounds to me more along the lines of '8ugger! Run out of arrows, what can I belt that frog clankie with that's close to hand' rather than deliberately carrying a maul as a hand to hand weapon.

Froissart in 1381 describes mauls as 'mallets of iron and steel, perilous staves to destroy helms and bascinets'.


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Rchave
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Re: Newbie saying hi, and a question!

Postby Rchave » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:25 pm

Thanks, they're great sources :)

I suppose what I was getting at is that it seemed a very strange idea that archers were issued with (effectively) sledgehammers. I think given how medieval people were so loose with classifying things, and the variety of weapons mentioned in the sources, that they weren't referring to anything standardised. And 'bec de faucon' is, in it's loosest definition, a hammer and a spike- as that's mentioned I wouldn't be offended to see a portrayal of an archer using one. What Barrett described in 1562 as a maul could easily be what others called a bec de faucon. A splitting maul could also be called an axe. I don't think they cared as much as we do.

Sorry to take this on a tangent, all i was trying to suggest was that a "maul" is very much open to interpretation, but that it seemed very odd that a group of archers would all carry weapons that are incapable of cutting or stabbing.



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Fox
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Re: Newbie saying hi, and a question!

Postby Fox » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:48 pm

Grymm wrote:Another eye witness describes them(archers) as getting stuck in with swords, hatchets, mauls, axes, becs de faucon and other weapons ...

That's the quote that Desmond Seward uses in his Hundred Years War book, but despite quotation marks, he doesn't provide a source for it.

I don't suppose you know where it's from.



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Grymm
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Re: Newbie saying hi, and a question!

Postby Grymm » Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:10 pm

Rchave wrote:Sorry to take this on a tangent, all i was trying to suggest was that a "maul" is very much open to interpretation, but that it seemed very odd that a group of archers would all carry weapons that are incapable of cutting or stabbing.



I'm of the mind that they are more agricultural camp/seige work tools for knocking in stakes etc issued, if that's the right word, for construction jobs and, like many of those tools they can double as big mashy choppy thing if necessary.

Fox I'll see if I can chase it down, working from loose notes on that last post.


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Rchave
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Re: Newbie saying hi, and a question!

Postby Rchave » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:48 am

Just saw a quote on another forum and couldn't resist,
ordonnance de Bohain du 13 novembre 1472 (burgundian)

for foot archers: ...... un maillet de plomb qui hait deux dagues, à la façon de l'artillerie, qu'ils porteront pendant à un croc à leur ceinture..."


"...a hammer of lead which has 2 spikes, in the style of the artillery, which they will wear hanging from a hook on their belt..."

Yes it's still not HYW but it's closer than Tudor.
I'm not saying this was a "standard issue" kind of weapon, but it's a logical description of a [maul/bec de faucon/whatever you choose to call it 300 years before any dictionary had been written].



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Pawel Brzosko
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Re: Newbie saying hi, and a question!

Postby Pawel Brzosko » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:57 pm

My old group reenacting and English free company under Henry V (http://www.draby.pl) was mostly using falchions, long knives, arming swords and shorter swords with extra handguard. Also handaxes but less often. I don't exactly remember the sources, but one surely was 'English Longbowman 1330-1515' published by Osprey.

I can't see they would not use maces or mauls, but surely not sophisticated weapons such as pollaxes which as far as I know were knightly arms.


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Adam R
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Re: Newbie saying hi, and a question!

Postby Adam R » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:31 pm

Pawel Brzosko wrote:#snip , but surely not sophisticated weapons such as pollaxes which as far as I know were knightly arms.


I don't think that's so. Although favoured by ker-niggits and up upon the battlefield, I think their use was more widespread. A Paston letter springs to mind:

I suppose ye should have such things of Sir John
Fastolf if ye would send to him ; and also I would ye
should get two or three short poleaxes to keep with(in)
doors, and as many jackets, and ye may.

Plausible that it is a term incorrectly used - but I suspect our post-renaissance thinking picks on categorisations like that more than the holistic minds of our medieval forbears.


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Thalion
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Re: Newbie saying hi, and a question!

Postby Thalion » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:33 pm

Will.S wrote: Who are the leading/respected sword makers in the UK?


Hi

For me? The most respected and well made swords, that are tougher than nails is "Armourclass".
These things are good priced and last literally years, one of our sergeants brought one well over
five years ago (Can't remember exact year but I know it's definitely over five.) and has never
failed him or broken (He fights with it regularly and the steel holds up amazingly, better than any
sword I've ever seen (Well apart from any other armourclass one ;P)). I can't give high enough
praise for these guys, they care about quality and making the customer happy.

Regards,
Thalion.


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Ordinis Hospitalis Sancti Johannis Jerusalem
Ava Crux Alba

Will.S
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Re: Newbie saying hi, and a question!

Postby Will.S » Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:51 pm

Ah cheers for that! Forgot about this thread.

If I end up buying a new one, I may well look at Armour Class, although I'm not particularly keen on the looks of their products.

As it happens, I ended up getting frustrated by the available options as none looked right to me, or fell into my budget, so I made one instead. This was based on an existing sword in the Metropolitan museum of Art, and dates to the correct period using Oakeshott's typology. I made it from a cheap Windlass Erbach blade which is hollow ground, and designed the cross and pommel for a guy I know to mill for me from mild steel. Came out nicely and with some hand filing, aging and weathering looks exactly how I wanted. I did the grip from wood wrapped in vegetable tanned leather and dirtied it up a bit, then annealed the tang and cold peened it.

Image

Image

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It's a bastard sword obviously, and while historically it seems that would be suitable for an archer regardless, if I decide I want something shorter I also did a re-grip on this Windlass European sword which is perhaps a bit early for the period but could pass as a "hand me down" quite easily.

Image



Thalion
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Re: Newbie saying hi, and a question!

Postby Thalion » Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:05 pm

Ouch, quite a tip on that thing; I doubt they'd let you field with such a point (You know, unless it's tewksbury :P), and you're maintaining that blade too well, very very shiny :P. But seriously that's some nice work, although a shortened version of a bastard sword is odd but still looks nice! As for armourclass, their website isn't great, but they go to TORM which is always better, and damn I love their Rapiers as well. Just hope your sword blade is strong enough :)


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Ordinis Hospitalis Sancti Johannis Jerusalem
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Will.S
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Re: Newbie saying hi, and a question!

Postby Will.S » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:04 am

Thanks! It's not actually a shortened bastard, it's full length (unless you meant the Windlass which is a single hander?)

It's pretty tough - I've done some cutting with it and it's held together nicely. The Windlass blades are incredibly well made for good prices. It's actually more sturdy now than it was with the original Erbach parts, as they were light and loose whereas this is packed in tightly.

I don't actually do any re-enacting (yet) so this is just for Azincourt 2015, and Joss seems happy for weapons to be kept in scabbards if they're not being used for the combat stuff.

You're right about the blade being too shiny though - a spray with vinegar and salt will sort that out, like I did with the hilt parts!



Thalion
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Re: Newbie saying hi, and a question!

Postby Thalion » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:13 am

That's good, hope you have a great time, just remember one simple phrase; "If you think you can simply finish a re-enactment kit, think again." At first we started out with just a car-load of kit, annnd now we have trailers full of it too.


Brother of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem.

Ordinis Hospitalis Sancti Johannis Jerusalem
Ava Crux Alba


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