Bannockburn 2014

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Ayliffe's Steve
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:11 pm
Location: Basingstoke

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Thu May 09, 2013 2:16 pm

Medicus Matt wrote:It was a publicity shoot for, surprisingly enough, 'Brave'.

Ah - that makes sense. Do you know what their actual historical standards are at the moment?

Medicus Matt wrote:Did I say you did?


Yeah, pretty much. If you did not mean that then you phrased this reply quite clumsily:

Medicus Matt wrote:Why not just talk to Chick directly?
I'd imagine that would be a much better way of going about it than going straight to the NTS and making demands.


Unless, of course, it is just conincidence that it appeared under my post and you were talking to someone else. If that is the case then I apologise.


All programmers are playwrights and all computers are lousy actors.

We are the GCoT - you will be assimilated.

guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby guthrie » Thu May 09, 2013 4:27 pm

PaulMurphy wrote:http://www.clanranald.org/cln1/duncarron/bruces-scotland-tour

They've started to show a small level of interest in the kit of this period, though apparently thrown together cheaply and without any attempt at getting the details correct, and then combined it with Disney - spot the difference:

Actually, I saw some of them in Edinburgh and west Lothian maybe 5 years ago? They'd started showing an interest then, or at least some of them had, and none were wearing great kilts. One had even made his own shoes!

Communicating with them would be a start, although firstly finding the best way could be difficult, secondly finding someone who is diplomatic enough/ not had enough contact with them to be bothered is also necessary.

Medicus Matt, did you just volunteer?
:devil:



User avatar
Medicus Matt
Post Knight
Posts: 1470
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:16 pm
Location: Zummerzet
Contact:

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Medicus Matt » Thu May 09, 2013 9:13 pm

guthrie wrote:
Medicus Matt, did you just volunteer?
:devil:


Gods no, I have no interest in re-enacting the anniversary of two lots of Frenchies squabbling over mud.


"I never said that I was here to help."

User avatar
Medicus Matt
Post Knight
Posts: 1470
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:16 pm
Location: Zummerzet
Contact:

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Medicus Matt » Thu May 09, 2013 9:15 pm

Ayliffe's Steve wrote:
Unless, of course, it is just conincidence that it appeared under my post and you were talking to someone else. If that is the case then I apologise.


It was.
I was.

No apology required though.


"I never said that I was here to help."

User avatar
Medicus Matt
Post Knight
Posts: 1470
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:16 pm
Location: Zummerzet
Contact:

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Medicus Matt » Thu May 09, 2013 9:22 pm

guthrie wrote:
Communicating with them would be a start, although firstly finding the best way could be difficult,


I can give you Chick's mobile number if you like?


"I never said that I was here to help."

guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby guthrie » Thu May 09, 2013 9:27 pm

Medicus Matt wrote:Gods no, I have no interest in re-enacting the anniversary of two lots of Frenchies squabbling over mud.

What, you mean french like the royal family is german?

A mobile number probably isn't the best way since it leaves no evidence of what was communicated. Thinking more 'professionally' here, the NTS/ event organisers/ clanranald need to set up an email for us to contact them, or the list of people who have expressed an interest needs to be passed onto them, or else a contact email publicised for those who want to take part to contact, although I thought Scott had gotten some interest when he first asked for people last year.



User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Fox » Thu May 09, 2013 10:42 pm

For everyone's reference:
http://www.clanranald.org/

...includes contact details including an e-mail address.

Personally, the more I hear, the less comfortable I think I'd be with the whole thing; it doesn't seem like my thing.
I wish everyone else the best of luck with the project.



User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby zauberdachs » Fri May 10, 2013 12:24 am

Not sure I'd be happy with people bringing up the crap I was wearing and calling re-enactment when I started 10 years ago...

Re: Clan Ranald. Let see,

1. Really sh** kit back in the day
2. A mixed bag of good and bad kit now.
3. Think they are the bogs B***cks
4. Flexible attitude to "authenticity"
5. Sensitive to perceived criticisms and slights
6. Don't like to be told what to do by others

That probably describes 90% of reenactment groups right there.


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Fox » Fri May 10, 2013 9:30 am

zauberdachs wrote:That probably describes 90% of reenactment groups right there.

I agree; as we've already said many of us didn't exactly cover ourselves in re-enactment glory 10 years ago when the re-enactments started at Bannockburn.

And I can't disagree that 10 years ago I had some funny ideas about history that I've learnt were quite wrong (you can find some in the archives on this site, probably).

My concern is not with Clan Ranald being contracted per se; they've always seemed like a decent bunch of lads, who like a vigorous fight [and so do I].

My concern is that the event feels it might owe more to a Victorian Highland games, than a 700th Anniversary of a medieval battle.
And moreover, it may be playing to a certain nationalism that will make a visit to Bannockburn unpleasant for the English; the site has some form in that regard.

I can't help wonder if Clan Ranald have been hired because they can provide a performance based, commercial entertainment, in contrast to an amateur re-enactment. I'm sure they'll do a grand job.

I think the event stands a good chance of being a success in all the ways that NTS want; but, at the moment, it doesn't sound like the sort of thing I'd want to do; and it is my time and money and still only my hobby.

@Matt: if Charlie or one of his lads want to comment, I think some people would be interested to hear from them.
But it would be perfectly understandable if they're not that interested with what we say on here.
I certainly don't plan to bother them; I've had my feedback from the organisers and I've shared it here.



Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4240
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Mark Griffin » Sun May 12, 2013 9:07 am

only just chanced across this conversation...

and this

battle re-enactments using traditional re-enactors


made me cough into my weetabix

I've no idea what a 'traditional' re-enactor is but I can have a pretty good guess. I'd be mildly interested to go up if there was horse fun to be had. i have kit for that era and don't mind being on the loosing side, its what happened. But I also know a lot of stuff will be there that didn't happen/or exist so I wish all and the event luck and success and will wait to see what transpires. Should be good but looks like there are doubts with which i concurr. Who is going from south of the border? Do we know?


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby guthrie » Sun May 12, 2013 6:23 pm

Scott has emailed me to say that they are discussing their plans with an events management company and assisting them in contacting the groups who have expressed an interest. So we shall have to wait and see but it is clear that things are moving on now, which is good. Keep an eye on your inbox.



User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby zauberdachs » Thu May 16, 2013 9:21 pm

More info has apparently been released on the event: http://www.clans2014.com/latest-news-ab ... rom-cosca/

Including:

www.clans2014.com wrote:* Though there will be no Clan Village as such, there will instead be a large tent inside which each clan can have a table and a couple of chairs (this is the sort of arrangement that has been used in the past – particularly in Inverness – to overcome the vagaries of Scottish weather).


Which I think is good news.


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby guthrie » Thu May 16, 2013 11:57 pm

www.clans2014.com wrote:* Though there will be no Clan Village as such, there will instead be a large tent inside which each clan can have a table and a couple of chairs (this is the sort of arrangement that has been used in the past – particularly in Inverness – to overcome the vagaries of Scottish weather).

That's a bit like at the Homecoming event a few years ago, except they had lots of little tents. It's sensible enough but unrelated to the re-enactment. Although maybe some people would like to put the clans in the medieval village?



Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4240
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Mark Griffin » Fri May 17, 2013 9:36 am

really don't know why I'm bothering to reply but curiosity has go the better of me. Might be answered elsewhere but what exactly are these 'clans' The official organisations representing the genealogical aspects of the groups of people with the same name? Some kind of re-enactors? Is there a point to why they are there, what do they have to do with the battle?


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

User avatar
PaulMurphy
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:40 am
Location: Cambridgeshire
Contact:

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby PaulMurphy » Fri May 17, 2013 12:51 pm

They're the family groups who exist to provide a focus for badly educated Americans who wish to revisit their ancestral homelands, and who may wish to donate a few pennies in the process for the upkeep of the clan chief's sadly neglected baronial pile.

Think tartan wallpaper and carpets, kilts, Etonian accents and a pair of Purdeys to go with the Range Rover and you won't be far wrong for the majority of them. Why they want to pitch up in tents next to the biggest council estate in Stirling is beyond me, but a few of them do actually contribute usefully to local communities.

Have a look at http://www.clanchiefs.org/p/members.html - although note that CAPT. DUNCAN DARROCH OF GOUROCK died in 2011, so it's not particularly up to date. Whether he ever saw the town next door to my birthplace is not recorded, but he died in Sandhurst at the age of 79...


Paul Murphy
Tournée & The Vikings
______________________________________

Hobbitstomper
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:04 pm

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Hobbitstomper » Fri May 17, 2013 2:45 pm

And clans will have the chance to play an 3D simulation against each other, ie to play a wargame:

“* And face it, this is the coolest part by far: Visiting Clans groups will be able to interactively battle each other in a 3-D simulation of the battle that does not have a set outcome.”

I can imagine it now...

Clan McTartan “You play the English”
Clan McSporran “No way, I did it last time”
Clan McTartan “But I did it twice the time before”
Clan McSporran “So what. Clan McClaymore have never done it”
Clan McClaymore “We will never side with the English. It has not happened in 900 years and we are not going to start now”
Clan McSporran “You are just saying that because you don’t want to be the losers”
Clan McTartan “Well we are not doing it again, it’s not fair!”...



guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby guthrie » Fri May 17, 2013 2:52 pm

Mark Griffin wrote:really don't know why I'm bothering to reply but curiosity has go the better of me. Might be answered elsewhere but what exactly are these 'clans' The official organisations representing the genealogical aspects of the groups of people with the same name? Some kind of re-enactors? Is there a point to why they are there, what do they have to do with the battle?

The Clan associations today are often headed by the hereditary clan chief, who is descended from the original historic clan chiefs. Think like the remnants of feudalism. Therefore they provide a focus for those interested in family history and the like.
They don't have anything to do with the battle, although I think I've read there were some Macdonalds there, it's just that SCOTLAND = CLANS is present in so many people's heads that some people think it a good marketing ploy to have a clan gathering thing at the battle site. 2 for the price of one as it were.
There's also been some general confusion over the decades, conflating lowland family with 'clan', and the word 'clan' has ended up with several meanings, hence the confusion. The clan system proper died out in the 18th century. Interestingly, according to wikipedia Robert the Bruce regularised clan relations using the feudal system, so there's a connection there.
It is important to remember that at the time of Bannockburn the highlands were nearly as well developed as everywhere else in Scotland. Then everywhere else advanced, leaving the highlands behind. So the clan system was of its time in 1314, but by post-medieval period an anachronism.



User avatar
narvek
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:55 am
Location: Prague, Czech Rep.
Contact:

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby narvek » Sat May 25, 2013 11:49 pm

I am the czech friend Nigel mentioned and there is some number of people that are interested in going. If the event looks decent that is.


Eurototty reporting in for duty!

User avatar
Tod
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2884
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am
Location: A small part of Scotland hidden in middle England
Contact:

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Tod » Wed May 29, 2013 4:03 pm

guthrie wrote:The Clan associations today are often headed by the hereditary clan chief, who is descended from the original historic clan chiefs. Think like the remnants of feudalism. Therefore they provide a focus for those interested in family history and the like.
They don't have anything to do with the battle, although I think I've read there were some Macdonalds there, it's just that SCOTLAND = CLANS is present in so many people's heads that some people think it a good marketing ploy to have a clan gathering thing at the battle site. 2 for the price of one as it were.
There's also been some general confusion over the decades, conflating lowland family with 'clan', and the word 'clan' has ended up with several meanings, hence the confusion. The clan system proper died out in the 18th century. Interestingly, according to wikipedia Robert the Bruce regularised clan relations using the feudal system, so there's a connection there.
It is important to remember that at the time of Bannockburn the highlands were nearly as well developed as everywhere else in Scotland. Then everywhere else advanced, leaving the highlands behind. So the clan system was of its time in 1314, but by post-medieval period an anachronism.

That is so well put you deserve an award.



User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Fox » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:10 pm

I've just been thumbing through my participants application one last time before deciding not to complete and return it.

Arrival and set up is on the morning of Friday 27th June.
That's a tall order for the English; we're quite northerly and it's still a three and half hour journey on a clear run, and we'd have to catch some peak traffic somewhere, even with an early start.

This early set up is so that we can be "inspected by Health and Safety and meet the event team, and finally to take part in a dull dress rehearsal the same day." [sic]; note the unfortunate misspelling. :)

The event itself is Saturday 28th, Sunday 29th and Monday 30th June 2014, open 10am to 5pm.

Each event day, the full scale battle re-enactment will take place within the arena at 12 noon, 2pm and 4pm lasting approx. 30 - 40 minutes each. Please be advised the battle re-enactments will be tightly choreographed sequences and therefore we are looking to select professional and highly experienced battle re-enactment groups who will be able to prepare for battle for months in advance and have access to all the necessary authentic equipment and costumes. We will work with re-enactment group captains to ensure that full kits lists are to the required standards. This is a physically demanding role and we require commitment from you from the point of selection.


Comfortingly "There is no fee to participate in the battle re-enactment."
And...
For those taking part, we will provide you with the following;
- a dedicated point of contact for instruction on battle choreography and content
- a camping pitch on site with access to toilets and running water
- access passes for re-enactors participating over the weekend
- a parking space adjacent to the site (please note parking spaces are limited and may be restricted)
- a set fee to cover travelling expenses


I'm still discouraged by the overall tone:
The specially created festival arena will feature a programme packed with music, Scottish food &
drink, crafts, literature and outdoor activities all set in the beautiful surroundings of the memorial park.
Alongside the biggest Battle of Bannockburn re-enactment ever seen in Scotland, an array of themed villages will be
constructed each presenting the sights, sounds and atmosphere of medieval and modern Scotland. There will be three
opportunities to watch the re-enactment each day so that everyone can see and enjoy all of the performance stages and the theatre tents.
The bespoke arena will include a main contemporary music stage, Scottish literature and traditional music in ‘Storyville’, tastings and food demonstrations in the ‘Land of Food and Drink’ featuring quality Scottish produce and real ales, hands-on bush craft, wildlife and outdoor activities in our ‘Natural World Village’, along with a children’s programme, a chance to participate in sports like archery and "have a go" highland games and an opportunity to trace Scottish roots for families returning to Scotland.


This isn't so much an anniversary re-enactment of the battle, as a festival of Scottishness; and I am unsure about exactly what the battle of "tightly choreographed sequences" might be like to take part in.

With a minimum of two days off work; realistically three, for "a set fee to cover travelling expenses", that seems like might have quite a large personal cost for something I don't know if I'll enjoy.

Anyway, best of luck to them; I'm sure it will be a spectacle.



User avatar
Biro
Post Centurion
Posts: 517
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:10 pm
Location: North-East

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Biro » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:02 pm

Wow. The battle every 2 hours.. Not enough time to be worth de-armouring between. . Not really sure I have the energy for that,. Not three days of it, with a long drive etc.

Maybe 20 years ago...



User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby zauberdachs » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:47 pm

Does look like a steep ask. I totally see where you are coming from: considering the lack of monetary compensation there seems to be plenty of work but not much in the way of fun.


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4240
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:00 am

a vignette of action every two hours would be fine, if they were paying sensible rates. I hesitate to use the phrase 'if they were using professionals and payingsensible rates'. By that i mean people who are well used to performing regularly on that basis in a choreographed sequence. Not many re-enactors are but many would certainly have a go. But the rate of attrition would be high methinks, not only on the person but on the kit.


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

User avatar
Phil the Grips
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Auld Reekie- capital village o' Jockland
Contact:

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Phil the Grips » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:31 am

One of the local generic "Clan" type combat groups (they all blur into one for me so could be The Clan, Clann, Clan Ranald or any of their blanketwearing clones) uses the same venue my salle does and have been practicing for months. It's going to look very dynamic and well practiced from what I have seen through the window, all historical spheroids of course.

Participants seems to be entirely keen young things (plus my former Firearms Officer) eager to be on the telly and have the opportunity to be "considerably mair scottish than youse" in public on the vague promise that it will be experience toward some future film work via Chick Allan (judging by their conversations during their frequent fag breaks).


--Angels also carry weapons--
http://www.blackboarswordsmanship.co.uk/

User avatar
Ayliffe's Steve
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:11 pm
Location: Basingstoke

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:52 am

They know their market. Most people up there did not seem interested in the true history of the battle and just wanted us to re-enact Braveheart - this seems to be what they are pandering to as it makes the most money.

This would probably mean 2 or 3 days off work, I am self employed so that is 3 x my date rate gone and then all of the expenses on top of that. Seems far to travel with the children for that little time also seems too far and too long to be away from them if I don't take them.

The first couple of times I went it was fun but each year the local's tone got darker and the last time I went someone tried to assault us as we left sight (it had happened the first time I was there as I was walking off the battlefield), the local pub went out of their way to rip us off, the locals were a lot more abusive on sight etc. The fight lasted about half an hour and we were engaged for only a few minutes - the clan kicked off an argument and caused another group to move their camp to avoid things getting physical, they then decided not to take the field as they feared for their safety. Although I did get stopped by an author who wanted to take my picture as I had the most authentic kit he had seen on sight, he asked why one of the groups wore great kilts - all I could do was shrug and explain that I was a member of a different group and did not know them.

With beer being sold on sight I would be conerned about whether someone was going to get stupid again, especially if I am a part of the English army and everyone is getting high on 'Scottishness'. If my children were there I would worry to the point of not letting them go more than my hand's reach away from me.

This is a definite no from me. I am interested in hearing how it goes and seeing pictures and videos etc in order that I might go some other year.


All programmers are playwrights and all computers are lousy actors.



We are the GCoT - you will be assimilated.

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Fox » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:05 am

BTB: Anyone who does fancy the sound of this, applications are supposed to be in by tomorrow, so you should contact "Bannockburn Live" straight away.



User avatar
Phil the Grips
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Auld Reekie- capital village o' Jockland
Contact:

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Phil the Grips » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:08 am

Ayliffe's Steve wrote:Most people up there did not seem interested in the true history of the battle and just wanted us to re-enact Braveheart
Not "most people"- just the most vocal, publically visible and well-connected minority, unfortunately.


--Angels also carry weapons--
http://www.blackboarswordsmanship.co.uk/

Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4240
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:13 am

Bannockburn Live? I wonder where they got that title idea from. Seems to be the news history event buzzword!


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Fox » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:31 am

I wonder if EH might be interested a more usual display for History Live!

It is a significant anniversary, and a lot of the suspects you might want will be there anyway....



Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4240
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:46 am

Already in hand. For some reason there will be a fair few long bits of wood that might be available and decent cavalry so knights vs schiltrons would be good...


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.


Return to “1100-1500”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 7 guests