Bannockburn 2014

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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Nigel » Wed May 01, 2013 3:12 pm

Which year was the year we came up ?


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby PaulMurphy » Wed May 01, 2013 3:17 pm

Nige,

2003 or 2004, I forget which one. But I do remember the steam...


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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Fox » Wed May 01, 2013 3:24 pm

Sorry, I have my years confused; I meant 2002/2003.

PaulMurphy wrote:...took a lot of flak for criticising people who had made the effort to get there, but hadn't made the effort to get the kit right. Some of those people are now friends

It was also done at very short notice in 2002, most of the English were recruited in July and August; and PE took what they could get.
It was the balance between getting a battle the public will believe was battle and feel was spectacle, and avoiding the wang (which didn't happen).

But I agree, I don't think it was good enough, and likewise the second year.

I'd like to think if it were done again, with a better kit guide and the general improvement in re-enactment, it could be an awful lot better.



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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Fox » Wed May 01, 2013 3:24 pm

Nigel wrote:Which year was the year we came up ?

2004.

[Edit: Actually I now think it was 2003. I've got my years totally confused, because I think I went in 2002 & 2004.
It doesn't matter at all, of course]
Last edited by Fox on Thu May 09, 2013 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Nigel » Wed May 01, 2013 3:25 pm

PaulMurphy wrote:Nige,

2003 or 2004, I forget which one. But I do remember the steam...


Steam ar you impying I may have voiced an oppionion Or was it when I apaprently broke Tony Pollards hand :D


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Nigel » Wed May 01, 2013 3:28 pm

Ok positive slant what would it take to get me there

No crap married to a good enforced kit guide agreed and presented with time to be achievable not talking minutae just enough to achieve "the look"

Security around the site good security

Weather I can cope with

Sort these out and I may raise an eyelid


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Fox » Wed May 01, 2013 3:35 pm

Nigel wrote:Ok positive slant what would it take to get me there

I'd need some pretty strong indicators that it wouldn't be a Walter Scott inspired Independence rally and that any re-enactors I encouraged to go would be (a) safe (b) enjoy themselves (c) feel I hadn't sold them a lemon when I insisted on some level of authenticity.

But, in truth, I don't think we're wanted anyway.

I wrote a simple enquiry to the official e-mail address yesterday morning about the nature of the re-enactment.
If I get a reply, I'll post the substance of it here.



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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby zauberdachs » Wed May 01, 2013 11:39 pm

Fox wrote:And 40 Scottish combatants isn't anything like enough to get the biggest re-enactment on site. I checked the records for some previous Bannockburn re-enactments and there have been more 200 combatants on the field.


2005 was run by the Royal Armouries, wasn't it? I remember perhaps a hundred at that event. It went into serious decline after that event with perhaps 20 - 40 guys in a field.

Fox wrote:And who's the go-to-guy to get them organised?


I'm going to go out on a limb here, Guthrie or Mike would be much better informed, but perhaps Ian Deveney or that guy who organised the reenactors for the Linlithgow event? (I was going to say the "small loudmouthed Glaswegian" but that doesn't narrow it down... ;)

Guthrie wrote:There might be some Americans or Antipodeans interested too


I have a number of New Zealanders who are interested, which spawned the original question. I am very conscious however that I wouldn't want to bring a crew of people literally around the world for a village fete sized reenactment.


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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby zauberdachs » Thu May 02, 2013 12:00 am

Fox wrote:But, in truth, I don't think we're wanted anyway.


Thinking about it and considering that the Clan Ranald guys could probably field a surprising number of people from their own networks, I would not be surprised if they'd determined that recruiting from the existing reenactment scene, with all the politics and extra involved work, was not worth the effort.


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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby guthrie » Thu May 02, 2013 10:23 am

zauberdachs wrote:I have a number of New Zealanders who are interested, which spawned the original question. I am very conscious however that I wouldn't want to bring a crew of people literally around the world for a village fete sized reenactment.

If they want to make 10 days to 2 weeks of it, and have other kit, they could come the Tatton or the like the weekend before, or hang around for Tewkesbury.



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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby guthrie » Thu May 02, 2013 10:26 am

Fox wrote:And who's the go-to-guy to get them organised?

It might help if you clarified this - do you mean go to guy at the event side, i.e. a member of NTS staff or whoever they had contracted the running of the re-enactment out to, or do you mean someone else to organise the groups before the event?



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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Fox » Thu May 02, 2013 10:31 am

I meant who is the Scottish equivalent of Nige and Paul; who would you contact to raise interest, recruit and assist with cat herding of re-enactors.



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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby zauberdachs » Thu May 02, 2013 11:34 am

guthrie wrote:
zauberdachs wrote:I have a number of New Zealanders who are interested, which spawned the original question. I am very conscious however that I wouldn't want to bring a crew of people literally around the world for a village fete sized reenactment.

If they want to make 10 days to 2 weeks of it, and have other kit, they could come the Tatton or the like the weekend before, or hang around for Tewkesbury.


Good point :)


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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby guthrie » Thu May 02, 2013 11:53 am

Of course it would be remiss of me not to mention all the other things going on, even non-re-enactment. They are sorting out quite a few things around the end of June start of July.

I'm not sure there is a Scottish equivalent. Medieval SCottish re-enactment (Not counting the pre-11th century stuff) is rather too fragmented for that. Most of us know Hugh Robertson because of HS work, and Dave whatsisname who runs northern alliance has done a good job of whipping in a disparate bunch of re-enactors.
And obviously we know lots of people so could sort of do it ourselves.



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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Thu May 02, 2013 12:34 pm

I went to Bannockburn years ago.

First time about 8 of us went and had fun. Apart from one drunk MOP who was trying to pick a fight with me as I left the battlefield, another re-enactor walked up, took the drink out of his hand and necked it before giving back an empty glass and complimenting him on the beer. The MOP seemed to lose his focus then.

Next year a load of us from the Morrigan went up and had a great time, Ayliffe has family in the area so we visited. We had a good battle, horrible weather but no one cared. The public were good fun and really got into the spirit of it.

The next year four of us went and our part of the battle was about 5 minutes long. Clan Renald demanded that they be allowed to fight in the sword tournament with a quarter staff and caused an argument with the group next to them that resulted in that group moving their camp and declining to take the battlefield on the Sunday. I also watched one of Renald's display and they were quite good although I am not sure that great kilts and Locharbour axes were as common in 1314 as they claimed.

The beer tent was heaving and pretty much unusable. The pub we went to ripped us off and someone tried started a fight with me in the town but, luckily, he was so drunk that when he shoved me he fell backwards and I stayed still.

The year afterwards they changed the date to be the same date as the Scottish Nationalist march to the same site. So I refused to go.

I cannot imagine being tempted back.


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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Fox » Wed May 08, 2013 5:03 pm

I have a reply to my e-mail in which I quoted the article in the Scotsman, and pointed out that "As English re-enactor I'm concerned that this event no longer looks as promising as it once did, especially for the English."
I also asked "Are you still planning to recreate the battle using traditional re-enactors, or do you have a different plan?"

I received this reply
David J McAllister, Project Director, The Battle of Bannockburn Project wrote:Let me re-assure you that yes, we are planning that the core of the event will be a series of battle re-enactments using traditional re-enactors. Property Manager, Scott McMaster is helping to co-ordinate our engagement of re-enactment groups and I have copied him in to this response. He may well be in touch with further details. We are also enhancing the event with additional exciting content as befitting its Signature Event status in the Homecoming 2014 Year with the financial support of Event Scotland, Creative Scotland and Scotland Food & Drink to make the event a fitting commemoration of the 700th anniversary of the battle and of the opening of the new visitor centre.



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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby guthrie » Wed May 08, 2013 5:40 pm

Well that's a good start.

This is a little interesting:
http://www.cosca.net/05/bannockburn-2014/

•It is proposed that the Clan Village will be to the left of the walkway to the flag pole monument as you look at the site from the road. The grandstands for the actual battle reenactment area on the right hand side of the monument and from the base of the Bruce statue northeasterly from the monument. The heavy athletes to the right side of the walk just before the monument circle and the reenactment grandstands.
•The Scottish Vendors and performance stage on the right side of the walk between the Heavy athletes and the road.


I am a little concerned that the site will be a bit small for all that and a medieval village and thousands of visitors, not to mention the well known drainage issues. But I would assume the events company would be able to say whether it is a sensible arrangement or not.



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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby guthrie » Wed May 08, 2013 7:17 pm

Oops, having refreshed my memory of the site, it probably will be large enough for all that, just need some careful siting of things. And drainage works.



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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby PaulMurphy » Wed May 08, 2013 10:10 pm

For my sins I seem doomed to go through government reports line by line, and in the report from the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee's meeting of the 24th April, David McAllister, the "National Trust for Scotland’s project director for the battle of Bannockburn project" says this:

Branding the event as a battle re-enactment gives it a focus, but its overall scope and content will be considerably broader. Certainly there will be large-scale battle sessions in which the highly professional Clanranald Trust for Scotland will lead a vivid and historically accurate impression of what the conflict would have been like, along with other re-enactors from across the world. That is not to celebrate violence and death but to do justice to those on both sides, most of whom were ordinary farmers and peasants called to war by their feudal masters, who fought and died on this site, and to give some idea of the ordeal that they underwent.

However, most the event’s content is taken up with other activities. The re-enactors will be giving small-scale weapons demonstrations and will create an encampment in which visitors can see what routine life was like for campaigning soldiers and all those who followed them. As I have tried to convey, there will be much else to see, do, sample and experience. People will enjoy the spectacle and entertainment, which is also an excellent means of engaging people in the historical reality, tackling some myths about the battle and the era in which it was fought while retaining a sense of dignity and commemoration
- http://www.cosca.net/wp-content/uploads/28862.pdf page 6

So, they've already contracted ClanRanald. That's the very bad news. The good news is that they're aware that it can't be a "we hate the English" event. It's just a shame that they're probably going to struggle to get anyone to take part as a result of the first bit.


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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby PaulMurphy » Wed May 08, 2013 10:15 pm

I can feel a letter coming on... if I was to draft something asking the NTS to ensure that the event is free from tartan, commemorative rather than celebratory, and has the re-enactment co-ordinated either by a named individual or committee of experienced re-enactors who have been involved in large-scale, multi-society and multinational battles, would anyone else be prepared to offer their support?

I'm not volunteering to run the event - I have a day job which pays a lot more and returns marginally less stress - but if there is still some chance of this event being rescued then I feel that the effort should be made.


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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby guthrie » Wed May 08, 2013 11:23 pm

Clanranald have also been involved in the motion capture stuff related to the interactive modern battle representation stuff (Or whatever it's called). Therefore in theory they should be in touch with people who have a good idea of how the battle was likely fought. It would be nice to know which theory they are following regarding the site, although the weapons technology is well known.

(It certainly doesn't include bronze shields like one clan member I met at Bannockburn 5 or 6 years ago)



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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Thu May 09, 2013 9:22 am

Hang on, has anyone actually seem Clanranald at an event recently? Is it possible that they have improved their historical standards and now pander less to the Mel Gibson's Braveheart?

If not, could we ask the trust to see their kit guide and take things from there? If Clanranald publish a kit guide which contains great kilts etc then we could query it and less the organisers know and if they publish a kit a guide which states great kilts are incorrect they would look foolish to then turn up wearing them.

Or am I just being naive?


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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Medicus Matt » Thu May 09, 2013 10:03 am

Why not just talk to Chick directly?
I'd imagine that would be a much better way of going about it than going straight to the NTS and making demands.


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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby PaulMurphy » Thu May 09, 2013 11:18 am

http://www.clanranald.org/cln1/duncarro ... tland-tour

They've started to show a small level of interest in the kit of this period, though apparently thrown together cheaply and without any attempt at getting the details correct, and then combined it with Disney - spot the difference:

ImageImage

Matt - I've asked for a kit guide from the NTS, and had no response. As for talking to Chick directly, I'd rather bang my head repeatedly off a brick wall, as it is likely to be more rewarding.


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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Nigel » Thu May 09, 2013 11:54 am

re the above oh dear


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Thu May 09, 2013 11:55 am

Medicus Matt wrote:Why not just talk to Chick directly?
I'd imagine that would be a much better way of going about it than going straight to the NTS and making demands.


Because if the NTS are involved in the comunication chain then queries are more likely to be handled properly and not just brushed off, ignored etc.

Although, I do not actually recall suggesting that anyone demands anything of anyone.


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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Biro » Thu May 09, 2013 11:55 am

I actually think it's a really, really good "Brave" interpretation.



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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Thu May 09, 2013 12:01 pm

That photo does look a little suspicious! Is that dress wrong for the time period? I do not know what it is but it looks like guy on the left has a two handed sword which is a little later than Bannockburn, isn't it? Didn't they start getting popular when solid torso armour became common?

Could someone who knows more than I do about the period confirm whether their group has any level of accuracy. I notice in some of their pictures they are wearing great kilts but there is no reference to the time period that they are representing.


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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Medicus Matt » Thu May 09, 2013 12:06 pm

It was a publicity shoot for, surprisingly enough, 'Brave'.


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Re: Bannockburn 2014

Postby Medicus Matt » Thu May 09, 2013 12:08 pm

Ayliffe's Steve wrote:Although, I do not actually recall suggesting that anyone demands anything of anyone.


Did I say you did?


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