Hats again :)

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Alan E
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Hats again :)

Postby Alan E » Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:38 am

Quiet in here isn't it !

To repost a question I asked out on the noisy site (maybe that'll get things moving): Straw or sun-hats worn by field workers (and others ?) : What shapes are authentic?



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Chickun
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Postby Chickun » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:56 am

Yeah and anybody know where you can get them? My wife wants one!



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Postby His Grace, Duke Henry » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:16 pm

Sorry this is a low res image. This is a detail from Pieter Bruegel's "Harvesters". It shows 2 styles in use. Hope this helps.

ObMileageVarience
Always refer to original sources and context where possible. This detail depicts Netherlands C16th. Not England C15th. Eliminate all detected Authienticity Police before proceeding.

EDIT
Use this link for an online reproduction of the full image
http://www.artchive.com/artchive/b/bruegel/harvesters.jpg
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HarvestersDetail.gif
Detail from Bruegel's Harvesters
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Last edited by His Grace, Duke Henry on Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.



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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:13 pm

akcherly your honour the hats in the Duc de berry and others are all much the same, so not a bad ref.

thanks


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Alan E
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Many thanks Your Grace

Postby Alan E » Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:48 am

Most grateful yr worship !

So that's a natural and a black (!) 'coolie' style on two of the women (others wearing simple coifs and one a hooded cloak (?), and a low-rise round top for the men (one in natural and one possibly black). I've also seen reference (forget where though) to men in 'coolie' style.

Like Chickun said, anyone know who's selling them like this ?

Jorge, is that a medieval go-kart 8) ?



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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:53 pm

Remember coifs are mainly 14th century and 16th century, for some reason they go right out of fashion in the 15th, dunno why so many WOTR groups have them, looks odd.

Alan E, no it is a medeival baby walker, from a German woodcut circa 1480.


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Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

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Alan E
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Postby Alan E » Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:21 pm

Was oscilating between calling it a baby-walker and a go-kart -I wonder who definitively decided it was the one not the other (and what criteria they used) !

Myself I wear a hood, usually as a hat, but I'm still interested in finding someone selling coolie-style hats, as our show has a lot of standing around in the sun (often instructing MOPs in archery).



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Postby His Grace, Duke Henry » Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:43 pm

gregory23b wrote:coifs are mainly 14th century and 16th century, for some reason they go right out of fashion in the 15th

Line call. This is a dangerously sweeping statement <Hands gregory23b a large metal spiked broom>. The lack of depiction in artwork sources and references is not an indication that they were not commonplace still.

Over-reliance on just a few surviving sources is leading to a serious outbreak of re-enactor "cloning" and the under representation of the great variety of styles worn. Whilst fashions for the upper and middle classes ebbed and flowed, the conservatism of the peasantry, would have meant that the coif would not have suddenly disappeared, rather I would point to a dearth of detailed artwork depicting the lower classes, from which some arguably selective points are being made.

<wraps fireproof cloak tighter and lowers heat reflective visor into position> :wink:



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Alan E
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Postby Alan E » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:54 am

:lol: I've said it before: Plastic carrier bags went right out of fashion in late C20, there being absolutely no representation of them (either whole or shredded and blowing in the wind) on artists' illustrations of new shopping centres; :twisted: it remains a mystery what people of that era actually carried their purchases home in. Given the archeological evidence of shopping trolleys abandoned where they were difficult to take back, some theorists suggest that those without access to cars must regularly have used these trolleys as barrows, however this would require a better quality road and walkway surface than we currently have evidence for. :wink:



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Postby caroline » Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:20 am

Straw hats available from Matuls made from sweet flag...I am told the traditional material used at that time.



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Postby Thomas Hayman » Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:08 pm

I have an image of a REAL 13th century one ooooooo. its the first one, as the tetx in German reads, from left to right. damn, too big, if ya want it, mail me and i'll send it out.



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Postby frances » Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:11 pm

I have lots of the wide-brimmed rush ones made in China. They are all the same, so will want personalising, jumping on and generally dirtying-up (or is it down?) £7.50 each. south London or at selected events.



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Postby Quinch » Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:11 pm

Which events? Festival of History?



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Postby frances » Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:45 pm

When is the Festival of history and who do I contact to find out if they have a space for me, please.



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Postby Quinch » Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:03 pm

Weekend after next and Kelmarsh Hall. English Heritiage.



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Postby Quinch » Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:03 pm

Weekend after next at Kelmarsh Hall. English Heritiage.



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Postby frances » Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:28 pm

Ta. Have you a phone number abd name of the organiser please.



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Postby frances » Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:29 pm

Where is that spell-checker?



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Postby Dingo8MyBaby » Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:17 am

I think the person to speak to is Mark Griffin - he posts on here as Mark Griffin!



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Straws

Postby Grymm » Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:41 pm

The staw hat seems to be the shark of the hat world.... and before you start I dont mean it swims around scoffing anything it can get its brim on but that the shapes and methods of construction dont vary a busting lot from roman to today(either a woven sheet or a long strip of straw plait stitched into a spiral). The crown is the bit that varies the most ranging from almost flat(Like the ladies in theBruegal and 18thC ladies hats) to bee hive shaped like the one worn by St George in the Pisanello painting (think there's a version in a men at arms book... prob'ly Italian or Burgundy) There is even speculation that the very silly hat worn by the hubby in the Arnolfini Marriage is a straw. I've not seen a high flat crowned straw in piccys til Elizabethan times.
As to suppliers I'd most likely try Kittyhats (www.kittyhats.co.uk) or hit the charity shops whilst the summer is here. You can shape straw by soaking it and moulding it whilst wet then leave it to dry in the shape desired.

Grymm



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Postby gregory23b » Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:38 pm

'This is a dangerously sweeping statement <Hands gregory23b a large metal spiked broom>. The lack of depiction in artwork sources and references is not an indication that they were not commonplace still

ah the old LENEL chestnut, sorry but in this case ask yourself a few questions:

1) 14th century - very little visual matter compared to 15th century yet coifs very much in evidence.

2) 15th century huge amounts of visual evidence compared to previous century yet surprisingly few representations of coifs on normal people. The dawning of early modern 'realistic' portryals, documentary imagery etc.

3) 16th century even more representation available that previous centuries and presence of coifs noted.

Coifs like any other item of clothing come in and out of fashion and regardless of red herrings like LENEL there are fewer representations of coifs on normal people in the 15th century than previously or subsequently. Otherwise we can easily say that people in the 20th century are also wearing coifs, merely on the basis of LENEL rather than what we see or otherwise.

It was not a sweeping statement it was based on a great deal of thought and consultation with other people, coifs have been a little bugbear of WOTR groups for over a decade and a half and more like reenactor fashion than representing anything.

The prevalence of coifs in WOTR groups is far in excess of any visual representation in mid to late 15th century, which is the crux of the matter, indeed it is ironically an example of reenactor thinking rather than out of the box thinking.

summed up by your quote

"Over-reliance on just a few surviving sources is leading to a serious outbreak of re-enactor "cloning" and the under representation of the great variety of styles worn."

ie coifs are only shown but seldom.


Coifs are indeed represented but in specific situations, much like certain other items of attire, badges of office if you like, which is why I did use the word 'mainly'.


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Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

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Postby lord roos » Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:29 pm

Gregory

Hear Hear !!!

The only representation of coifs in the 15th c. seems to be in court situations (ie The Kings Bench).........perhaps worn in the fashion a modern day judge/barister/clerc wears an 18th c. wig today ???


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Postby Dingo8MyBaby » Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:02 am

The problem with most of the straw hats is that they are too finished. What I’d like to find would be an importer of Chinese coolie style hats.



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Postby Cat » Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:43 pm

Ah, I love straw hats, they're nice and cheap and brilliant for keeping the sun out of your eyes, but as my kit is ...not posh, but fairly 'middle class', I was getting sniggered at for me peasantly headwear. So I bought one of those pepper pot shaped jobbies off the Polish lads at Tewkesbury. It's a bit 'Arnolfini', but is posh enough not to look out of place with middle rank kit.



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Postby Thomas Hayman » Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:11 pm

You mean an Acorn hat? they're so cool :-)



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straw hats

Postby Jenn » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:35 am

I did a bit research on this a few years ago - coolie type shape seems to have been popular. I can find no evidence ( please note that I am aware that this does not mean that [u]they didn't exist) of anything other than straw plaits that are sewn together - not woven[/u] So that is what most people should have which is why I'd be suspicious of most modern coolie type hats as they tend to be woven.
The big innovation of the later half of the 17th cent was the straw splitter which then allowed much smaller plaits to be made and the more intricate shapes and designs of the 18th cent evolve.
You can sometimes buy them in charity shops, some of the hat suppliers have them or if you're keen you could buy ready made straw plait from a millnery supplier and make your own.



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Postby frances » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:30 pm

The history of straw hat making is really interesting. There used to be an organisation in Luton that could point one in the right direction - the British Hat Guild, but I have a feeling that they may have changed name, or maybe moved premises. It is the hat industry's trade body, and they used to put on hat exhibitions at museums and such-like places. Luton, by the way, used to be the centre of straw-plaiting in England a few centuries ago. There used to be rivalry between the girls of Luton and the nearby town (name of which escapes me) that used to be the centre for lace-making. The other place the girls were supposed to have big derrieres, because they sat down all day. The Luton girls used to have big mouths, because they wetted the straw by drawing it through their mouths and the straw cut the corners (ouch).

The general concensus of opinion seems to be that rush hats were the medieval choice because it was so easy to get hold of, or to find the rushes at the local market. I have seen metal original straw cutters - such a simple thing, isn't it Jenn. Yet it completely revolutionised the hat-making industry.

Oh, and did you know that in Edwardian times the straw boaters were so strong that you could stand on one without making a dent in it.



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Re: Hats again :)

Postby Cezar » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:31 pm

Alan E wrote:Straw or sun-hats worn by field workers (and others ?) : What shapes are authentic?


This is nice collection of straw hats from manuscripts. But of course you can find much more. What is fun that each one of them is different.

Cat wrote:So I bought one of those pepper pot shaped jobbies off the Polish lads at Tewkesbury. It's a bit 'Arnolfini', but is posh enough not to look out of place with middle rank kit.


Thanks. I still sell them if anyone want to order. Any shape is possible to order since they are made by my friend .. not in china. We try to reconstruct the medieval plainting techniques as well. But hats are not made from straw. The material we use is lower part of water plant called bulrush


Please find below some examples of those hats .. one is taken from Maciejowski Bible.

Image
Image
Image
Image


Tomorrow I will post more pictures of them


My reconstructions -- > http://www.kakaj.freha.pl <--

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Postby frances » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:15 pm

wow, just luv those hats!!



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Postby Skevmeister » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:57 am

Those hats are fantastic, how much are they and how could I go about getting one, or would it be more cost effective to get a few people together and order a few as I know that bank charges from UK to Poland can be quite high.


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