15th century Linen doublet sources

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wyldstallions
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15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby wyldstallions » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:32 pm

Does any one know of any sources for linen doublets in the mid 15th century preferably British.

I find it a bit hot wearing a woollen one and thought linen would be a bit cooler.

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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby guthrie » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:39 pm

I've not heard of one.
But a lot of the cloth that we use for doublets now is far thicker than would have been used back then; you have to hunt about for some nice thin wool.



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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Grymm » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:46 pm

Turning that on it's head, does anyone have primary sources for woollen doublets in the 15th & 16thC?


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby guthrie » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:47 pm

Grymm wrote:Turning that on it's head, does anyone have primary sources for woollen doublets in the 15th & 16thC?

I believe "The Kings servants" has such things for the early Henrician period.



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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Grymm » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:41 am

guthrie wrote:
Grymm wrote:Turning that on it's head, does anyone have primary sources for woollen doublets in the 15th & 16thC?

I believe "The Kings servants" has such things for the early Henrician period.



It was a line from that book that made me ask the question, I quote,"It is noteworthy that woollen cloth was never issued to make doublets."

Caroline goes on to list fustian and canvas* for 'humbler men^'. The middling sorts it's worsted, satin de Bruge and most commonly camlet and the men of standing satin, velvet and occasionally damask.

Worsted is the only completely wool based cloth listed and it isn't a common one in the lists, like it says camlet is fabric of choice for doublets for the middle classes closely followed by satin de Bruges with worsted trailing waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay behind.

So a soldier in a linen doublet from med/stout linen/hemp fabric looks to be more period correct than one made from wool, certainly by early 16thC at least.


*When they use the term canvas I pretty sure they mean made from a hemp fabric rather than gurt thick tent material
^The term Humbler sort , I think, would cover most of us non noble types that (Used to in my case) fight with a bill or bow, work the kitchen etc


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby guthrie » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:11 pm

Ah, in that case you could ask them, I'm sure they would answer soon enough.

re. 15th century, are there not examples of letters asking for wool for doublets and the like?



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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Grymm » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:31 pm

guthrie wrote:Ah, in that case you could ask them, I'm sure they would answer soon enough.

re. 15th century, are there not examples of letters asking for wool for doublets and the like?



Asking for doublet cloths, ie a piece big enough to make a doublet, yes, but I've not seed any that specify a woollen cloth.


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby guthrie » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:05 pm

Interesting. I've not done any real research myself, just go by the usual sources and habit. It does seem clearer now that more doublets, i.e. the (in earlier times) sleeved thing that holds up your hose could well be non-wool. Then you have a woollen gown or jerkin or suchlike over it which would also supply more warmth as well as social acceptability, in the same way as people used to wear hats and jackets as much as possible except in the privacy and comfort of their own homes.



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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Dave B » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:07 pm

guthrie wrote:Ah, in that case you could ask them, I'm sure they would answer soon enough.

re. 15th century, are there not examples of letters asking for wool for doublets and the like?


you are probably right. however the people who wrote letters and have them survive are (by and large) not those of humble means. its a blooming good question. livery coats and the like clearly 'fall' like wool in illustrations, but a quick look at pictures of men in doublets doesn't give many clues and there are few survicing ones and IIRC those are the posh jobs in silk etc.

I definitely always thought doublets were made of wool but I can't say I can point to any primary source.


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby gregory23b » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:43 pm

If fustian, then we need to have a better idea of what fustian is, ie if the wool fustian, then what texture will it have? Will it be more similar to wool or linen/cotton, it could still look more like wool than not.

Either way I feel doublets are too thick in reenactment, they arose due to nothing to change that view in over 20 years, it is more likely they should be thinner and easier to wear under the over garments, the additional layers providing the warmth.


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Grymm » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:20 pm

Don't get me wrong I'm still rocking woollen doublet for medieval, Tudor and 'Lizzy, not the same one but they are all wool lined in linen but trawling through the records it's looking to me like it may be at worst completely wrong and at best hideously over represented =o/
I feel it's a 'nactorism but one that's always been there. Just making kit from 'wool' (usually nasty wool/synthetic mixes) was revolutionary enough 30 odd years ago, certainly in the group I started in it was all psuedo nobles in civvy kit that consisted of cotton shirts/shifts, curtain material gowns (no doublets to speak of) sleeveless leather/suede jerkoffs and 'lastic waisted jersey tee shirt fabric (baggy) hose.

There's also a general misunderstanding of how the clothing works ... prob'ly a sweeping generalization here ;o)

Normal wear is with your coat/gown on, the doublet, I feel, is a 'foundation layer' not an outer layer.
But a lot of folk don't bother with a coat so the doublet becomes the 'outer layer' and so is made from wool like a suit jacket ...


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby gregory23b » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:07 pm

I am in agreement, this is just an extension of the convo we were having at the weekend, just throwing up the nature of fustian once again, I would like to see some in the flesh as it were.


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby guthrie » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:25 pm

gregory23b wrote:If fustian, then we need to have a better idea of what fustian is, ie if the wool fustian, then what texture will it have? Will it be more similar to wool or linen/cotton, it could still look more like wool than not.

Either way I feel doublets are too thick in reenactment, they arose due to nothing to change that view in over 20 years, it is more likely they should be thinner and easier to wear under the over garments, the additional layers providing the warmth.

The difficulty is in getting the right thickness of wool; the thicker stuff has always been easier to come by but for the right look and feel you have to get the correct weave, finish and thickness. I heard of somewhere that does nice thin woollen cloth, but in the 20 or 30£ a yard range, which is often judged as too much by many people.

The layering effect is also interesting, I need to look into it more, since I feel that I am at risk of being cold even wearing a doublet and gown, so was wondering if there were any other layers I could add on a day to day basis. (Not a cloak, they are mostly just for travelling or poncing about in certain circumstances)



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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Fox » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:32 am

[I swear you two are baiting me.]

The hand spun, hand woven, linen/wool fustian we have is quite a light, open, but strong fabric, even compared to the wool/cotton and linen/cotten fustians made on the same loom.

I think a doublet both made and lined in it might be a practical garment, both in heat and cold.
Hopefully I'll have one next year, but I keep demanding other costume first.
(And also I need to eat more onions, so we can dye it :D )



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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Grymm » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:23 pm

Fox wrote:[I swear you two are baiting me.]


:wasntme:


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:46 pm

When Sarah Thursfield advised us on making doublets, she said that fustian is the norm, with worsted for better quality and skils for the posh. She tends to consider linnen an acceptable substitute as a descent fustian is hard to find.

She advised that a good 'fake' fustian is cotton moleskin (which is what my doublet is made of) as is of a simiar nature and finish.

Note that though worsted is made of wool, it is not a woolen. The difference is how the threads are spun, which gives a totally different finish to the fabric.

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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:50 pm

guthrie wrote:The layering effect is also interesting, I need to look into it more, since I feel that I am at risk of being cold even wearing a doublet and gown, so was wondering if there were any other layers I could add on a day to day basis. (Not a cloak, they are mostly just for travelling or poncing about in certain circumstances)


Get yourself a nice gown made of broadcloth, lined with blanket. Looks lovely and is really warm.


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby guthrie » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:21 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:When Sarah Thursfield advised us on making doublets, she said that fustian is the norm, with worsted for better quality and skils for the posh. She tends to consider linnen an acceptable substitute as a descent fustian is hard to find.

She advised that a good 'fake' fustian is cotton moleskin (which is what my doublet is made of) as is of a simiar nature and finish.

Note that though worsted is made of wool, it is not a woolen. The difference is how the threads are spun, which gives a totally different finish to the fabric.

Best wishes

You mean silk for the posh...
By worsted is not a woollen, you mean that the use of fine, well spun threads does not give the finish traditionally associated with woollen cloth, i.e. either fuzzy or well felted?

I have a gown, needs a new lining. I also have a wool on wool scholars gown, which is too long for practical wear outdoors unless you are just sitting about. But I did get to wear it at a meal in a Cambridge college when it was based on a marginal illustration in a manuscript in the CAmbridge library.



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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Grymm » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:49 pm

Coz worsted* is carded and combed it reduces the halo of sticky out free ends and gives a finer denser schmooover yarn.


*worsted here is used to mean the type of yarn NOT the American habit of appling it to a size of yarn


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby gregory23b » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:13 pm

'[I swear you two are baiting me.]

Nope ;-)


I have found that the fustian you gave me benefitted from a good hot wash, it caused some massive shrinkage but it does look more usable. I am not sure about it being a top layer, but as you say it might well be a decen liner.

---


What does brushed linen look like perchance? does it exist even?


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:30 pm

guthrie wrote:You mean silk for the posh...


Yes, him! :$

As to the worsted, I mean what you said, but also that it is treated as a separate fabric in the Middle Ages. Simialr to the way that silk and velvet are different, even though both are made of silk.


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Mark Griffin » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:40 pm

There are of course existing linen hose for the late 15th and a bit later some nice plain trunk hose 1560's. Not aware of archeological evidence for existing linen civilian upper garments but obviously there are the existing military ones.


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:31 pm

Mark Griffin wrote:There are of course existing linen hose for the late 15th and a bit later some nice plain trunk hose 1560's. Not aware of archeological evidence for existing linen civilian upper garments but obviously there are the existing military ones.


:o I've never heard of linnen hosen. Can you point me toward a reference?

Many thanks


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Mark Griffin » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:23 pm

happy to oblige old bean
Attachments
GermanLinenHosesml.jpg


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Mark Griffin » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:25 pm

Osprey MAA German Peasants revolt. i have a better doc somewhere but a its in german an b its the summer and i'm up to my neck in it.


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Tod » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:40 pm

Some times I hate you all :wink: So my wool doublet that is linen lined is wrong, both of them.
I have some very fine wool but it is oiled. I think it says in French along the edge that it contains lanolin. What could I use that for? Its very flat with no fuzzy (technical word) texture. Almost like heavy linen. I had a new arming jack/doublet made I think that is linen outside and silk inside, would that be OK?



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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Mark Griffin » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:47 pm

Some times I hate you all :wink: So my wool doublet that is linen lined is wrong, both of them.
No, why is that?


I have some very fine wool but it is oiled. I think it says in French along the edge that it contains lanolin.
All wool contains lanolin, just depends on the amount of processing its had.

What could I use that for? Its very flat with no fuzzy (technical word) texture. Almost like heavy linen.
Sounds yummy. What I look out for for early period wool is the staple length (longer the better) and what the weave is. Without seeing I couldn't tell you. They did all sorts of things to wool, there is a great variety so the jury is not only out, its probably a bit confused as well :-)

I had a new arming jack/doublet made I think that is linen outside and silk inside, would that be OK?
Yes, spot on.


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby guthrie » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:49 pm

Tod wrote:So my wool doublet that is linen lined is wrong, both of them.

Nope a doublet of wool with linen is probably still okay, there's some evidence for them somewhere - just that other things were available and they tended to use not thick wollen cloth but finer worsted types. I'm learning all that stuff this year myself, the difference between wollen, worste and cloth that is made from thread that has been combed or carded.



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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Mark Griffin » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:00 pm

And you have to be careful using modern wool terms when buying foryourself. There was a vogue for 'melton' over the past years but modern melton is different to medieval stuff.


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Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Tod » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:04 pm

If some one would like to have a look at the lanolin wool I have I could cut a bit off and send it to them. Leather I know about fabric is a mystical art.




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