Re: 14thC Islamic kit

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gregory23b
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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby gregory23b » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:40 pm

" If I were to wear everything you see here at, say, Tewks or Tatton, and I were to come at you with the swords you see in the image, would you or your groups be unwilling to fight me or consider me too lightly armoured to fight? Would the fact that I'm dressed in Islamic clothing and obviously playing an Islamic role bother you, or upset you?"


The only thing that would upset me would be if the fight was meant to be in England in 1470s etc, that would be wrong IMHO, if it was a stand alone compare like for like to show the styles and educate etc then no worries.

Be careful of merging one set of ideals with others, a parallel portrait, yes, an absorbed one, then you have some serious story telling to do.


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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby Mike Garrett » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:54 pm

There's a fair few multi-period shows about, I believe.



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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby Phil the Grips » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:09 pm

Kairra wrote:The weapons are such that until I can find a group or persons who are knowledgeable in Islamic fighting to teach me Islamic sword moves

Dr. Manoucher Khorasani is da man when it comes to such things-
http://mmkhorasani.com/10.html

Would any of this have you turn away from me on the field?

If I had turned up to an event purporting to be portraying England in 1485 then yes, I'd be highly narked no matter how good your kit is, just as if you'd turned up in jeans and t-shirt to a Black Tie dinner.

If I had turned up to an event with a generic dateline or theme of "Medieval" then I'd be OK about it as the term is so vague or all-encompassing as to be meaningless.


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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby Kairra » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:31 am

Thanks to everyone so far for the contributions :D I'm seeing a lot of the same point, which are that if you saw someone dressed this way in an English battle then it wouldn't be acceptable, which is perfectly acceptable in itself - as someone else said, there are plenty of mulitperiods to be getting on with. The only reason I mentioned Tewks is that I've seen so many different periods of armour on that field over the years that I actually keep thinking it's just a big bash up - sorry about the confusion! I know, I should know better...spankings all 'round. I'm also looking at joining a group that portrays the Crusade periods so again, somewhere for me to call home outside of the usual events :D

On another note: Phil, I was just looking at your link for Manoucher Khorasani - do you know if he does training DVDs or anything of the sort? I noticed he has some books but I find it hard to translate fighting moves from books to reality, especially when I don't really have anyone to practise with who knows more than I do about the subject.


“When you pass by the meadows of Paradise indulge freely in it.”
They said: “O Messenger of Allah, what are the meadows of Paradise?”
He replied: “The circles of knowledge.”
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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby Phil the Grips » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:42 am

Kairra wrote:On another note: Phil, I was just looking at your link for Manoucher Khorasani - do you know if he does training DVDs or anything of the sort?

I've no idea- you'd be best off emailing him and asking.


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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby guthrie » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:39 pm

Kairra wrote: The only reason I mentioned Tewks is that I've seen so many different periods of armour on that field over the years that I actually keep thinking it's just a big bash up - sorry about the confusion!

It has actually improved a fair bit over the last few years, I think the last time I saw a viking was 3 years ago?



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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby House of De Clifford » Fri May 04, 2012 11:06 pm

Just caught up with this thread!
Very interesting too. As part of my research on the crusades, i came across one book in particular by Carole Hillenbrand. The book is called The Crusades: Islamic Perspectives. It is a serious bit of reading for anyone with an interest in the crusades and after. There are many pictoral references and highly detailed research within. At over £50, it is not a cheap book but if you are serious then it is an absolute must.
Dave.


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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby Kairra » Sun May 06, 2012 4:44 pm

I have a book very similar in name as that, just not so costly, which recounted the Crusades from the point of view of the existing population. Thanks for the suggestion Dave, it's another book I can get my hands on. I really struggle to find books about the history of Islamic nations that are both relevant to battle and the earlier time periods, and as always the truth behind the crusades at many key points are hotly debated. If anyone has any other reading suggestions I'd be grateful to hear about it :)


“When you pass by the meadows of Paradise indulge freely in it.”
They said: “O Messenger of Allah, what are the meadows of Paradise?”
He replied: “The circles of knowledge.”
Excerpt from the Qu'ran.

I'm not religious, but if it makes sense...

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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby House of De Clifford » Sun May 06, 2012 8:33 pm

If its the Order of the Templars, then i am your man. I have a wealth of research material gathered over the last two years at university (and yes i am a 'mature' student)! The information from an islamic perspective tends to be somewhat harder to obtain though. It is wise to treat most information that comes from Western sources from this period on the East as subjective and possibly (i hate using the term) biased. But, there are some very good sources out there. Is there anything in particular you are struggling with?
Dave.


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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby Sophia » Mon May 07, 2012 9:12 pm

Can strongly recommend this book by Amin Maalouf if you want an Arab perspective.


aka Thomasin Chedzoy, Tailor at Kentwell Hall

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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby gregory23b » Mon May 07, 2012 9:51 pm

A great book Sophia, well worth a read.


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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby amirai » Tue May 08, 2012 6:10 pm

hi
i to have been going in to a lot of islamic kit ect.
i like to ask were did you find the information on the Khazaghand ?
and what book have you got?

i my self been doing a lot of resurch on arms and armour here a nice list of books.

Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era, 1050-1350: Islam, Eastern Europe and Asia Vol 2 (it show lot of kit and where it from)
oriental armour (h. russell robinson) very good book
a glossary of the construction, decoration and use of arms and armor in all the countries and in all times


Ospre
Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300–1774
The Mamluks 1250-1517
Mughul India 1504-1761
The Moors The Islamic West
The Armies of Islam 7th-11th Centuries
Armies of the muslim conquest
Saladin and the Saracens
Rome's Enemies (3) Parthians & Sassanid Persians (not that islamic but it show how the kit does not change over time??)
El_Cid_and_the_Reconquista_1050-1492 (just a few lslamic kit)

you may be able to fine them on the internet as pdf file or just bay them like i did?

for the sword (Shamshir)
i have ask all the top sword smith. here what the replay are

armour class £220
St George Armoury £400
heronarmoury £420
Lancasters Armourie (if i remember right £600)

all with a one year waiting list. I want with Armour class do to they replay back the next day and they made a few sword before so i will always go with them.

one more maker i nearly forgot

paul bin

he made me a shout Shamshir for £170 very well made sword will ask for a second.

i hope this helps if you have any question just ask?



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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby Kairra » Wed May 09, 2012 12:35 pm

Wow, I need to check this thread more often! I'm not very well at the moment friends so please bear with me, I may not reply for a little while at a time but I will come back.

Firstly thankyou Sophia, I actually have that exact book (I also bought it from Amazon) and it is indeed a very well written and informative tome. It was recommended to me by a professor of Islamic studies in London so it seems it's highly regarded by everyone!

De Clifford Dave :) - I'm really struggling with the movement of Islamic people through Europe at the time of around the 13th century. The Crusades aren't too bad for Islamic information gathering but after 1307 the records just seem to die out, as if everyone just couldn't be bothered with it anymore. In particular I was trying to find out if we have any records from around the world that indicate the presence of Islamic people in the UK, and the chance that those people may have been hired to fight here after the final crusade. I know from others in this thread that the Alien Lists show us very little to nothing in the way of Arab people's presence here, but I'm curious as to whether it's possible that these people could have escaped mention on these lists or census somehow. After all, how many foreign people do we have in the UK now who don't appear on any census, and we have much stricter and wide ranging abilities to find people. Of course, then you've to consider that there are a lot more people existing now than in the 13th century, and travel and immigration is a lot more common these days than theirs, but I'm still curious. There has to be something out there to give a yes or no to my question.

Last (but not least!) Thankyou Amirai for your post! The Khazaghand I found out about online, I can't remember the search I did but it was something that took me a little while to find out about. As far as I know there is only one left in existance, I think it's in a museum either in Egypt or Turkey.
The Osprey list of books is good too, I have most of them except one or two so I will have a look out for the missing ones. The Arms and Armour of the Crusading era is something I don't have, so I'm adding that to my list of useful things :)

Would you be able to upload an image of your Paul Bins shamshir please Amirai? I'm curious to see what you ended up with, as I've been recommended to him myself by other people.


“When you pass by the meadows of Paradise indulge freely in it.”
They said: “O Messenger of Allah, what are the meadows of Paradise?”
He replied: “The circles of knowledge.”
Excerpt from the Qu'ran.

I'm not religious, but if it makes sense...

amirai
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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby amirai » Wed May 09, 2012 7:24 pm

hi

there is vol 1 of crusding era 1050 1350 is has spain in the lslamic time with lean and castile ect and sicily with a few lslamic kit.
one more book that i will get later on.
The Arts of the Muslim Knight

sorry i don't have a camera to put up a picture.



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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue May 15, 2012 10:24 am

I have just finished a book that would be well worth your perusal, I have put a review up on the relevent LHUK forum.


OSTENDE MIHI PECUNIAM!

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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby Glorfindle » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:19 pm

Kairra wrote:Thanks to everyone so far for the contributions :D I'm seeing a lot of the same point, which are that if you saw someone dressed this way in an English battle then it wouldn't be acceptable, which is perfectly acceptable in itself - as someone else said, there are plenty of mulitperiods to be getting on with. The only reason I mentioned Tewks is that I've seen so many different periods of armour on that field over the years that I actually keep thinking it's just a big bash up - sorry about the confusion! I know, I should know better...spankings all 'round. I'm also looking at joining a group that portrays the Crusade periods so again, somewhere for me to call home outside of the usual events :D

Personally I don't see it as a issue, if I have to fight a guy in full plate and a guy in chain and a great helm in the same battle, then having a fight with an Arab isnt a massive leap. I think I'd be more inclined not to fight you because of your hight then your kit if I'm perfectly honest. So if your at tatton or Tewks in your kit, look out for me, I'll let you beat seven shades of hell out of me! :thumbup:


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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby amirai » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:23 pm

so what has Kairra desicded to have or made for her kit?

if you need any help just ask

It has been a very hard and long jouney for me to find what is right and how it made.

so i know what you are going in to.

And who can make it?

if i every came to a battle i will be very happy to fight you.

good luck



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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby Darkmere » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:47 pm

I havent had time to read through this properly but heres some very early middle eastern kit that someone has put togeather and looks really nice. Maybe you could ask them about there kit?
Its at the bottom of the page!

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... start=1276


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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby Darren Macdonald » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:44 pm

Kairra wrote:Would the fact that I'm dressed in Islamic clothing and obviously playing an Islamic role bother you, or upset you? [...] My dress and equipment would be 'off putting' to many English and European fighters, and as such it would be unlikely that I would be able to find anyone to fight on the battlefield[.]


I'd love to meet you on the field and cross swords...


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Re: 14thC Islamic kit

Postby The_Maille_Tailor » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:26 am

I may be able to help with the nasal piece of maille if you want?

I have plenty of bits and pieces I can play with in a variety of maille types, and can do it gratis as a research piece if you want?

Regards,
Gav

PS

I may have the books you need on PDF if you want to PM me I can send them over somehow.


http://www.mailletailor.co.uk/ Fitting links into other links for over a decade now. If its maille I can make it fit.


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