Re: 14thC Islamic kit

[Kairra]

Hi everyone,
After years of just reading this website, I've decided I finally have a need to actually write something here I've spent around 5 or 6 years doing 15th century English combat and living history, and then took a fairly long break before coming back in at 14th C, which I've been doing for the past year or so. Throughout my whole experience in both areas I always found that Islamic armour, weapons and living history really interested me and although I took the point that by the 15th century it would be hard to justify an islamic soldier in an English civil war, I have found evidences to suggest that it would be entirely plausable to find them here in the 14th C, given the close time proximity to the last crusades and the constant and successful trading between our countries. With that in mind I did a lot of research and I've decided that I'm going to go into the Islamic side of things, and perhaps help ease some of the natural prejudices that both history and current affairs have garnished the Islamic nation with.

The point of my post here is that I'm looking for help finding people who can provide me with the armour, weapons and the knowledge I need to make this good. I'm already dealing with Ali the cloth merchant who provides me with excellent material for soft kit, but my biggest issue is finding an armoursmith or maille maker who is willing to combine both fabric, maille and metal armour together for items such as Gauntlets. To give you an idea of complexity, the Mamluks (which are the people I am aiming to 'copy') used something called a Khazaghand which was a Jerkin made of two layers maille (one full length, one waist length) with layers of felt pads, rough silk, rabbit fur and other precious materials. They would sometimes be adorned with metal 'studs' and were fastened by loops and silver buttons. Here's an example that I picked up, which is written from observations of a real, surviving piece:



My questions are: Does anyone know of anyone (armoursmith, weapons or otherwise) who would be willing to take parts of this project on? Are there any Islamic soldiers already out there in the UK that I can talk to so that I can learn more and study fighting techniques and styles? Does anyone have any research they may have come across in their time that they might want to offload here about Islamic interactions with the British at that time?

Just in case it helps I'm currently in Nottingham and I'm a female who re enacts males, so the kit would be male oriented but would need to consider boobs

Thanks all
Kai

[Marcus Woodhouse]

Well done for trying to do something very, very different.
I for one would consider it to be very different as I, personally, believe that the chances of there being a Moorish/Muslim warrior living in England anytime during the middle ages would be slim to non-existant.
Most, if not all, trade with the Med was conducted through Italy, principally Genoa and Venice, who were very aggressive in protecting this monoploy; they sank an English fleet that tried to trade with Eygpt in the 1440's.
Most English encounters would be with Berber/Moorisco countiries of what is now Spain and Algeria, Tunisia, Morroco and these were not commonly pleasurable for one or the other side.
There is some evidence that northern european mercenaries, including Scots and English did serve in the armies of Islamic rulers, and Muslims did serve in the armies of various Iberian king(dom)s in the 14th and 15th century.
Given that men from Yorkshire were seen as barabrians and found it nigh imposible to make themselves understood by men from Kent (and vis-a vis) and that the English were extremely xenophobic I wonder where you have found evidence that there were Arabs or Turks in England. I portray an italain from a century later and there is nothing in the Alien subsidy rolls to suggest that, not least because there were perhaps only four thousand aliens living in England in the late 1400's and nearly a quarter of them are Italians living on the whole in Southampton and London, the rest are nearly all Flemish with a few Scots, Bretons, French and Irish.
I think that it's a great idea that you should portray a Arab/Berber/Moor or Turk because it's unusual and they have a history that is very much unknown, but I really would not try to come up with any weird backstory that explains you're a wandering pirate trader.
There are some excellent books about this araea of social/military history, try Fires of Faith for instance, the crusade and jihad ideals were still very strong in Europe at this time and there are fisrt class discussions on changes in military technology and tactics in those areas that were the battlegrounds of Cjristian/Islamic conflict.

[cloudy-cola-corp]

for the mail shirts inside capapie could do it extremely well but you would be £600 as a minimum for two shirts half thigh length. the fabric parts the padded armour company could probably do something.

[Kairra]

Thanks to both of you for your replies, I know our group does use Cap-A-Pie (or however their name is meant to be spelled) so I'll get in contact with them. I Spoke to the Armchair Armourer gentleman at Tewks last year and he was quite enthusiastic about taking on a new and unusual piece too, so if it means that I have to get this made seperately then I may get back in contact with him too.

Marc, yes I do see your point. I had started out looking for a 'real person' backstory but having even consulted two of the leading professors in Islamic history in the UK, no-one could come up with names of people in my exact time frame; they were either too early or too late. Since then I've decided to just go with the fact that I am a Mamluk who has taken it upon himself to experience the world outside of his country and if that means doing what he has spent his entire life being trained for then so be it.

I'm at work at the moment but I will have to dig out the things that led me to my conclusions. Parts of my conclusions were derived from the fact that we know, some of which you have mentioned: foreign soldiers being found all over the place, and also the traditions of the Mamluks themselves. Almost all Mamluks started out as slaves of sorts, drafted in to an elite training camp for the current ruler. They would remain in this service until their 20's, whereby they would 'graduate' from this school and essentially become free men, who would often go on either to serve the ruler or local rich merchants, some even leaving the country to use their skills as mercenaries elsewhere. Many became very rich and successful Amirs who became powerful politicians and were considered of very high slanding in the community.

My reasoning, then, was that it would be plausable to consider that a Mamluk would travel as far as Italy, become enlisted by an Italian family or merchant who had connections with Britain, and who would end up being shipped out here on some kind of mercenary/guard mission to protect trading shipments or some such. I know, it's a vague story with all the makings of a fantasy tale which is why I'm not willing to use it as a 'legitimate' story, but I see the possibility there. When I can I will supply some evidences to this thread for your perusal.

[Cap-a-pie]

Excellent - for info, I have considered doing something like this for sometime now, the only thing that has stopped me taking it further was not so sure how much of an interest in the UK. So kind of a personal side project - keep me posted, im interested.

[gregory23b]

"My reasoning, then, was that it would be plausable to consider that a Mamluk would travel as far as Italy, become enlisted by an Italian family or merchant who had connections with Britain, and who would end up being shipped out here on some kind of mercenary/guard mission to protect trading shipments or some such. I know, it's a vague story with all the makings of a fantasy tale which is why I'm not willing to use it as a 'legitimate' story, but I see the possibility there. "


Would said servant still be allowed to wear his native dress? I ask because whilst we know of slaves in Europe and the one portrait of a black slave/servant in the 15thc I can recall is wearing clothes that Europeans were wearing, ie lower class versions of his master. Would said servant or slave be allowed to practise his own faith? Were wealthy Italian merchants guarded by Ronin Mamelukes? Such issues spring to mind immediately when you create this line of reasoning.

Why worry about the doing it in a medieval English group setting, why not work on that as a subject in its own right? Doctor Timothy Dawson researches and recreates a lot of medieval eastern topics without shoe horning it into an incongruous setting. That way you do not have to invent a fantastic back story, but simply recreate and interpret people from parts of the world at the same time, that would be a refreshing change and widen the scope.

[Kairra]

Marc, I really love that idea and it would allow me to indulge in the tented living history that I really wanted to portray. I had the same concerns as you about how much of my native background I may have been allowed to retain having started working for someone of European origin and your idea frees me from this. It also allows me to actually have a name without having to explain that it comes with a story - I'm just xxxxx who is a Mamluk and this is how I would be living while the other guys you see in this camp were doing their thing. Now I have to hope I can run this past my group and get the thumbs up

Cap-a-Pie, I'll share my research with you and list out the piece I need so you can see what you might be up against. I would love to invest in some extra details, like the Islamic decorative patterns that were ringed into some maille armour in different colours - I'm also aware that I may never be rich enought to afford to do it, but it would be fun to have a look anyway

Hey, now I'm really excited about this - I honestly expected to hit the resistance to this idea I've been getting for the past 5 or 6 years, so thanks for that. It's amazing how removing the pressure for a backstory can just allow you to concentrate on education rather than entertainment.

[Brian la Zouche]

yeah i think marcus's idea really makes sense :thumbup: myself i portray an english 14th cent archer, and living in the midlands i have tried to find a good . local ( ish ) group for that period.... sigh

i have spoken and met quite a few midlands wotr groups, all very friendly and welcoming, but of course my kit is just wrong for that period, no ammount of ''i wear this earlier period costume, because.........'' is justified , least not to me and deffo not to the groups i have met,

i could get wotr gear and re-enact/living history, but then im dressed in clothing i dont wish to be in, covering a period that is not my main interest, so i know i'd not be happy

i would suggest you contact tony of the 'crusades' but then it would be yet another 14th cent enthusiast pulled to an earlier period :-)

[Kairra]

I've just realised I marked my reply to Marc when it should have been to Gregory. Terribly sorry Greg, it was your idea I was saying was a good one, in reply to your post. My excuse is that it was late and I'm not well, and I'm sticking to it

[Nigel]

for the mail shirts inside capapie could do it extremely well but you would be £600 as a minimum for two shirts half thigh length. the fabric parts the padded armour company could probably do something.

Thanks showed this to Debs and she says it looks like a challenge not insurmountable though.

She has been doign the odd Eastern piece over the last two years.

Best bet drop us a line with exact requirements and we can go from there.

Oh and dont expect it in a hurry she's a bit busy

[Marcus Woodhouse]

I never tried to crate a back story when I was in the ACWS, it would have been daft (we are Confederate/Union supporters who are just so cross that we have donned the uniforms of our friends across the sea). The Hoplites, Amerindians, samurai re-enactment groups don't see a need to justify being on English soil so neither should you. For the sake of a weekend wherever you are will be a part of Anatolia for example.
I wouldn't talk about a "Islamic Nation" though, that ideal died with the Prophet Mohammud. One of the reasons why the Frirst Crusade was a success was that the Shia and Sunni, Arabs and Turks, Egyptian and Persians were all at each others throats and didn't recognise the Christian force as a threat at first (indeed some tried to hire the crusader armies thinking they were just more Byzantine recruits). A Andulasian Moorisco would have a radically different culture to a Bosnio-Turkic Mourabatin, the army and equipment of a Moghul warlord had nothing in common with a Seljeck Sultan, a North African Amir was likely to see his real enemy the Ottomans not those nice Christians who buy stuff and pay him not to sink their ships.
A History of the Middle East is a weighty way into getting an over view of the period.
The Islamic "world" of the 14th century was as united as was "Christendom" was.

[guthrie]

I agree with Gregory 23b - sod trying to come up with a plausible backstory, just be a Mamluke and explain that is what you are portraying.

[Marcus Woodhouse]

I said it first, but in my special Tir Na Og way that meant it was so subtle that none but meself knew that was what I was saying because it is far better that you all be thinking you're thinking for yourselves when in fact you're thinking what it is I am in the want of making you think, so.

[Biro]

Not quite 14c - but some inspiration (and good reading regardless)...

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18577

[Kairra]

Marc I totally understood you, I was just giving the credit elsewhere since I knew that your superior thought patterns wouldn't require positive affirmations

Nigel, I'm presuming you and Debs are from the Padded Armour Company? Do you guys have an email or website, and when is your next event :p Don't worry about time, I knew this was going to take a while when I started thinking seriously about it, I'm happy to wait it out this year if it means I can go on next year in well made and authentically designed kit.

When I'm on my laptop I'm going to add a few images onto this thread of existing items I want to replicate. On another note, does anyone know who might be willing to make a Shamshir? It would be pretty straight bladed with only a slight curve at the very end, the hilt and crossguards were generally metal and all one piece Initially I'd be looking at one single handed, with a final view to two single handed and a hand and a half (i can't think whether there was a specific name for a larger shamshir styled sword so I'm using Western names).

[gregory23b]

St George Armoury, makes custom work, v. good quality.

[Kairra]

Thankyou again Greg, I shall look them up

[cloudy-cola-corp]

second St George balance is perfect weight is minimal and my friend and I spent 2 hours solid with one of his light hand and a half against my 3.2kg Lancasters 2 hander (it probably weights twice as much as the St George and is only a little longer and the blade is wider) and it barely took a single dint nothing worth filing off
and price wise you definitely get much better quality than what the price would make you think

and if you don't choose them then heron armoury make lovely slightly curved European style blades and is usually happy to do custom work for single and 1.5 hand size swords i don't think he does 2 handed though

[Hobbitstomper]

You would probably find the SCA are most welcoming as they don't seem to do specific dates and places for theis events.

They might have had moors turning up on the South coast as far back as the 14th century but they were only there for cream teas and slaves.

[ForTheMarshal]

We've emailed each other re: early period shows in islamic kit

[gregory23b]

"I said it first,..."

nah nah nah nah nah

----


It would be very interesting to see quality interpretation of foreign stuff, good is still good, go for it.

[Kairra]

Ok guys, here's some of the pics I promised earlier of kit peices I'm looking at - I'm doing this for a reason, which you'll see in a moment.

You've seen an example of the Khazaghand I linked earlier in the thread, which would have a chest peice of Lamellar armour over the top, as thus:


Then the helm would be a conical full head, preferably with maille neck and face protector, such as helm E in this image, or helm F if I can create a removable maille system for a nosepiece:


The weapons would remain in my comfort zone, short swords mainly. Since the Islamic sword didn't become curved until the mid to late 15th century, I would be looking at either A or F in this diagram:


The gauntlets would be of Maille, padding and armour, as in this image (these are the precise ones I would like to replicate, although I'm not sure how to go about the decoration):



Now then, my next question to you lovely people. If I were to wear everything you see here at, say, Tewks or Tatton, and I were to come at you with the swords you see in the image, would you or your groups be unwilling to fight me or consider me too lightly armoured to fight? Would the fact that I'm dressed in Islamic clothing and obviously playing an Islamic role bother you, or upset you? The weapons are such that until I can find a group or persons who are knowledgeable in Islamic fighting to teach me Islamic sword moves, I will be using western style fighting, so the same sort of thing you would use yourselves in the field, and the same sort I've been using for a good few years now. Would any of this have you turn away from me on the field?

I ask because I have had concerns, albeit anonymous ones in a letter, raised as to the fact that my dress and equipment would be 'off putting' to many English and European fighters, and as such it would be unlikely that I would be able to find anyone to fight on the battlefield, not to mention the fact that I won't be able to find good research here in the UK about Islamic history. I just want to know if any of this is possible truth, as there is simply no point in me spending a lot of money and time on research and kit, to find that I get onto the field and only manage to get one fight for the whole battle because of issues I wasn't aware of. Obviously, my skill level is relative - I'm probably better than some but not as good as others out there on each battle.

[cloudy-cola-corp]

I would fight you lots of people would find it an interesting experience in fact you might end up with cues on the second day if someone particularly enjoys the challenge and tells all their friends. plenty of people fight in only really heavy jacks and they have no trouble really, a few people might not fight you because they are unsure about your kit and things. but the most likely problem you would have is someone who's not used to fighting against someone not in full plate and hits you accordingly but most people can adjust well enough for different armours .

[Kairra]

Thanks Cola, it's good to hear. Yeah I'm aware that some people will be hesitant, and I was worried about the perspective that I may appear less armoured or protected than I am. Taking hits isn't an issue, I'm hard and I sort of enjoy a really good slap about anyway, but it's making sure that the person on the other end of the blade doesn't feel bad about it.

How about this: If any of you see a 5'3 female Islamic soldier on the field next year, feel free to go at her with everything you want to give because I'm ready and up for it Rawr

[Marcus Woodhouse]

I think that you should be abler to find out plenty of Islamic history, and the histories of the places, nations and empires of the middle east (Arab and Islam are not interchangable terms-I have friends who are Arab speaking members of the Copitc Church and the Catholic Syrian church conduct their services in Arabic and did so long before vernacular Masses were spoken in the West.)
If your aim is to educate then that should be an important starting point. Many Arabs are Muslims of one form or another but there are Arabic budhhists in Iran as well as many Arabic Christians.
I have no doubt that you would be able to find plenty of people who would ignore your kit at the shows you mention.
You may have problems in attending them as they tend to accept groups rather than individulas though.
You are going to have to accept though that if you turn up at a event that is suppossed to be a re-enactment of a 15th century English battle that some will take the p*ss and question your being there, as would I. At a multi period event it would be a different matter completely. But in my opinion if a event is supposed to be set in the 1470's the kit should show that. In fact it often doesn't which is why I attend fewer and fewer of such shows. The flip side of this is that I would never take part in a event that was meant to be depicting life in 14th century North Africa if I didn't have kit to show that. I didn't go to Kelmarsh for instance until I had what I held to be decent kit of the 1410's as the battle, was at the time, supposed to be the seige of Harfleur and Agincourt.
Have to say that I am still a bit p*ssed off that the very next year it was changed to Bosworth (and that most people still wore their normal WOTR stuff when I had made and bought stuff especially.)
But their are lots of multi period shows around and many feature very small and very specialised re-enactment groups. Nor does re-enactment have to be all about hitting people. Fighting bores lots of MOPs (and me) to tears even though I really enjoy watching and learning about actual fight styles.

[Kairra]

Marc, I certainly take you point about the fact that most of the time these are UK shows depicting UK units and it was the reason I hadn't started attempting this in all the years I wanted to do it. However as you say, there are multiperiods where anything seems to go sometimes, so even if it means I don't get to fight in some big battles, I should still get a few. As you say, fighting isn't everything and I am concerned with education, which is seems a lot of people badly need these days.

I was actually in a group right up until about an hour ago - it seems my decision was too radical (pardon the pun, I think) and it started an arguement which I found offensive, so I'm now on the lookout for a group near us that can accomodate a little Mamluk with a big personality Free cookies, if that helps!

Thankyou for your input Marc and Cola, I appreciate it.

[cloudy-cola-corp]

if you didn't mind doing a bit earlier than 14th C
and if your south Nottingham rather than north and didn't mind a 30 mins or so drive these guys are in Leicester and they do crusade stuff up to the end of the 13th C and have got some really amazing Islamic kit out and about already they came to midfest last year (which is somewhere near Nottingham this year ) because they are trying to get a bit more involved with the little multi period group I'm in because most of them have tried more of less every period you can re enact in the UK http://www.ezep.co.uk/Crusade-Reenactment/Home.html they even have a youtube channel

all the other groups i can think of are the wrong period or too far south for you

I seem to have commented a lot on this thread but I must admit this stuff just looks really really interesting to try and re enact its just so unusual to see here and has a very flamboyant style in a good way obviously

[ForTheMarshal]

if you didn't mind doing a bit earlier than 14th C
and if your south Nottingham rather than north and didn't mind a 30 mins or so drive these guys are in Leicester and they do crusade stuff up to the end of the 13th C and have got some really amazing Islamic kit out and about already they came to midfest last year (which is somewhere near Nottingham this year ) because they are trying to get a bit more involved with the little multi period group I'm in because most of them have tried more of less every period you can re enact in the UK http://www.ezep.co.uk/Crusade-Reenactment/Home.html they even have a youtube channel

all the other groups i can think of are the wrong period or too far south for you

Midfest is Northampton this year.

CCC - which group are you then?

[cloudy-cola-corp]

is it Northampton ah sorry I got confused

I'm in the warts'n'all group mostly but I'm in the sealed knot and normally fight with gods company when I'm doing medieval

[Mike Garrett]

Armstreet are the chaps for a lot of your armour requirements!

http://armstreet.com/store/helmets/
(bottom half of page)


http://armstreet.com/store/arm-armour/

(look at the bazubands - they do etching etc.)

http://armstreet.com/store/body-armour/

(lamellar etc.)

These chaps do very good work and will do custom stuff also, so I bet they'd be able to do that fancy maille rig!
Have purchased from them before myself - good quality, reasonable prices, pretty good turnaround.