Rivetting Points
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Rivetting Points
I'm intending to use mig wire to rivet the aiglets on to some woven points - i've found this to look considerably better than sewn. Can anyone suggest the correct guage mig wire? i've tried the narrowest and it really is too narrow.
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- Clarenceboy
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Re: Rivetting Points
I'll try and remember to ask Will what he uses to rivet his points with. He mostly does leather ones but sometimes does woven too and always rivets rather than sews
Re: Rivetting Points
Out of curiosity, why riveted over sewn?
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- Absolute Wizard
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Re: Rivetting Points
probably because the overwhelming evidence is thats what they were. I can't think of any surviving ones that are sewn. Tons of riveted ones. Some crimped. So do what the evidence says.
Same as points made by lucetting. Any evidence? Extremely rare i think, they are all finger braided from memory if narrow wares are used. Its stronger for one thing.
Same as points made by lucetting. Any evidence? Extremely rare i think, they are all finger braided from memory if narrow wares are used. Its stronger for one thing.
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Re: Rivetting Points
I use the copper wire out of four (solid) core cable. I went down to the electrical supplier and they gave it to me for free. I might still have a bit left how much do you need?
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- gregory23b
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Re: Rivetting Points
I found two lace chapes about an inch long, plain, of indeterminate date, anything from 14thc to 16th that were rolled from both sides, forming a B profile, no hole at all.
The rivets seem to be mainly iron IIRC, can anyone add more detail to that.
The rivets seem to be mainly iron IIRC, can anyone add more detail to that.
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Re: Rivetting Points
Did someone mention medieval metal work?
I had a look in the Mol dress accessories book, lots of copper alloy/ brass chapes, some with rivets but they don't identify the material of the rivet... (Someone needs to go back and look at the finds with modern technology because now we can analyse smaller things better and quicker)
Their book on the post medieval stuff in Southwark has brass chapes with copper alloy rivets.
So they used copper alloy anyway. I suspect that there might be more tendency to rusting and staining with an iron rivet, whereas at least with a buckle the rust would get worn off in use more readily.
I had a look in the Mol dress accessories book, lots of copper alloy/ brass chapes, some with rivets but they don't identify the material of the rivet... (Someone needs to go back and look at the finds with modern technology because now we can analyse smaller things better and quicker)
Their book on the post medieval stuff in Southwark has brass chapes with copper alloy rivets.
So they used copper alloy anyway. I suspect that there might be more tendency to rusting and staining with an iron rivet, whereas at least with a buckle the rust would get worn off in use more readily.
Re: Rivetting Points
I read way back in an archaeology report that residue of tiny iron rivets found with aiglets. I snip the fine pointy ends off carpet tacks and use them with success. Interesting thing is, they rust a little and swell, gripping the point and aiglet tight. Not as pretty as copper though.
Re: Rivetting Points
About ten inches worth if you've got it please Tod. Can send you an SAE if you'd like.Tod wrote:I use the copper wire out of four (solid) core cable. I went down to the electrical supplier and they gave it to me for free. I might still have a bit left how much do you need?
"I hold it to be of great prudence for men to abstain from threats and
insulting words towards any one, for neither the one nor the other in any
way diminishes the strength of the enemy." Niccolo Machiavelli
insulting words towards any one, for neither the one nor the other in any
way diminishes the strength of the enemy." Niccolo Machiavelli
Re: Rivetting Points
So I shouldn't lucet points? i'm not trying to call you on this Griff, but it's a new one on me. Guess the use of the lucet is a bit of a re-enactorism for late medieval points then?Mark Griffin wrote:probably because the overwhelming evidence is thats what they were. I can't think of any surviving ones that are sewn. Tons of riveted ones. Some crimped. So do what the evidence says.
Same as points made by lucetting. Any evidence? Extremely rare i think, they are all finger braided from memory if narrow wares are used. Its stronger for one thing.
"I hold it to be of great prudence for men to abstain from threats and
insulting words towards any one, for neither the one nor the other in any
way diminishes the strength of the enemy." Niccolo Machiavelli
insulting words towards any one, for neither the one nor the other in any
way diminishes the strength of the enemy." Niccolo Machiavelli
Re: Rivetting Points
I don't want to do you down or anything but i have seen the cognoscenti saying you should hand weave lucet for points for a few years now, but it's one of these things that doesn't matter compared to getting rid of many rather larger and more obvious issues.
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- Absolute Wizard
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Re: Rivetting Points
Or you could look at it as one of the easy things to do. Whilst I very much doubt every WOTR participant is hardly likely to rush off and bin welded helmets in favour of raised ones, making some better points should be within most peoples capabilities?but it's one of these things that doesn't matter compared to getting rid of many rather larger and more obvious issues.
To avoid the to lucet/not lucet debate, why not just use leather......? That's pretty common too.
To summerize from the evidence i have:
Never seen any lucetted points, if using thread they are braided and or plaited. As Gina says, there is tons of extremely good evidence for this including a whole set of instructions (handily transcribed into a book by the silk womens group Soper Lane, plug plug). They exists in the archeological evidence so why use anything else?
Rivets exist in both iron and brass form.
Points can be conical, tubular or just flat sheet crimped around as described by gregory 23b. I have bags of them here from various digs and mudlarks, the variety ifs quite wide ranging.
Rarely do you get them castlelated/with bobbles on the end and decorated in the 15th cent, they are GENERALLY later. And they are universally very thin and many are very nasty indeed, low quality work from shim is the most common type. Some are gilded and silvered but you can imagine what level of wealth the wearer had to do that. They are of course covered by sumptuary legislation as well so dont turn up with scarlet silk points at your next muster lest you can afford the fine

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- Tod
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Re: Rivetting Points
I'll have a look this evening and see what I have left, or if you can wait our contract sparky is due here in early January and he'll have some.Jim Smith wrote:About ten inches worth if you've got it please Tod. Can send you an SAE if you'd like.Tod wrote:I use the copper wire out of four (solid) core cable. I went down to the electrical supplier and they gave it to me for free. I might still have a bit left how much do you need?
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Re: Rivetting Points
I have some off cuts from a recent project.
Let me know if you still need some. I definately have a 10" piece laying about that i don't need.
Let me know if you still need some. I definately have a 10" piece laying about that i don't need.
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Re: Rivetting Points
Oh indeed, although I have plenty of lucetted ones and it'll take a while before I replace them with woven ones. I usually use leather ones for most purposes anyway. I'm sure this sort of thing would make a wonderful study in the transfer of knowledge through society, how lucetting became fashionable, almost expected, then dies away again as the correct information spreads and more people learn how to do the weaving themselves.Mark Griffin wrote:Or you could look at it as one of the easy things to do. Whilst I very much doubt every WOTR participant is hardly likely to rush off and bin welded helmets in favour of raised ones, making some better points should be within most peoples capabilities?but it's one of these things that doesn't matter compared to getting rid of many rather larger and more obvious issues.
- lucy the tudor
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Re: Rivetting Points
Oddly enough, lots of people given the choice of woven, for a comparatively small difference in price considering the time difference in the making, still choose the lucetted.
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Re: Rivetting Points
Jim PM me your address and I'll send you what I have, about 19" of 2 x 2.5mm + 1 x 1.5mm three core copper.
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Re: Rivetting Points
Pm'd you Tod.
"I hold it to be of great prudence for men to abstain from threats and
insulting words towards any one, for neither the one nor the other in any
way diminishes the strength of the enemy." Niccolo Machiavelli
insulting words towards any one, for neither the one nor the other in any
way diminishes the strength of the enemy." Niccolo Machiavelli
Re: Rivetting Points
If I can do it, anyone can!Mark Griffin wrote:Whilst I very much doubt every WOTR participant is hardly likely to rush off and bin welded helmets in favour of raised ones, making some better points should be within most peoples capabilities?
- Colin Middleton
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Re: Rivetting Points
Some random thoughts on making points.
To fit the aigelt, I always glue it on (wood glue), whether I intend to rivit it or not (I'm tending not to bother for arming points anymore as they tend to break more often).
For rivets, it depends where I got the point from and what size the hole is. If it's small, I simply use a pin (can be tricky to pein over though). If the hole is larger, I use panel pins (available in steel or brass from Wickes).
For the material, I tend to use finger braded linen, hemp or silk (waxed heavily) for arming points and platted wool for clothing points (I tried finger breaking the wool, but I kept snapping it). They're quite easy to make up that way.
If using leather, aren't most of the survivals alumn tawed goat skin? I know that the best leather points that I've ever had were alumn tawed. It made them much more resistant to snapping.
Does anyone know what materials were used to make points and arming points?
Many thanks
Colin
To fit the aigelt, I always glue it on (wood glue), whether I intend to rivit it or not (I'm tending not to bother for arming points anymore as they tend to break more often).
For rivets, it depends where I got the point from and what size the hole is. If it's small, I simply use a pin (can be tricky to pein over though). If the hole is larger, I use panel pins (available in steel or brass from Wickes).
For the material, I tend to use finger braded linen, hemp or silk (waxed heavily) for arming points and platted wool for clothing points (I tried finger breaking the wool, but I kept snapping it). They're quite easy to make up that way.
If using leather, aren't most of the survivals alumn tawed goat skin? I know that the best leather points that I've ever had were alumn tawed. It made them much more resistant to snapping.
Does anyone know what materials were used to make points and arming points?
Many thanks
Colin
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- Absolute Wizard
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Re: Rivetting Points
Surviving points on many harnesses etc tend to be more from deer. Certainly all the gestech helm linings in Vienna and on various helms are buck skin and that's what i do mine in. Its strong, springy and robust. I use pig for clothes if not using a narrow ware of some description, braided, plaited or woven
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Re: Rivetting Points
Oh and on the rivetfront, veneer pins. They need annealing first, but are excellent, and already part formed!
http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.