Mad people with handgonnes

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Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Tod » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:38 am




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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby James The Archer » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:59 pm

OK, take a (quite a ) few steps back
Al lest the last one shows why you shold NOT step in front of a loaded gun!


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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Dave B » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:46 am

The only thing interesting about the first to is that they were apparently made as 'how to' videos but look more like 'how not to'

The pig head one is interesting though. Can anyone tell what he is loaded with? I can't tell what language it is in.


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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Fox » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:07 pm

I wonder where the method [in the second video] of loading from a sealed cartridge, then piecing the cartridge down the touch hole after ramming, comes from...
It doesn't seem a likely historical solution to me....

I also wonder where the ramming with a mallet technique comes from [in both 1 and 2]; and why [in 2] he turns the ram rod and repeats....
Is that a technique from some document somewhere...?

Oh, and for f*** sake, wear some gloves!!!!! :o



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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Type16 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:44 pm

We have a ready supply of calming Chamomile tea bags for you to try


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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby guthrie » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:23 pm

Reasons why I don't play about with some substances include stories told by my dad - apparently someone at school (Ie back in the ealry 60's)made their own gunpowder and rammed it down into something a bit too hard and blew themselves up. Also the idiot who didn't know how explosive petrol vapour was when you've just spread a large can of it through a police station, then strike a match at the emergency exit to set the liquid on fire.



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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Phil the Grips » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:37 pm

Fox wrote:I wonder where the method [in the second video] of loading from a sealed cartridge, then piecing the cartridge down the touch hole after ramming, comes from...
It doesn't seem a likely historical solution to me....

I'd possit that they've taken Company of St George loading technique for their breechloader cannon and applied it to their own poleguns without realising how the same requirements don't apply


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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Dave B » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:52 pm

I did like the chap pouring blackpowder directly from an open pop bottle.


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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Fox » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:31 pm

Dave B wrote:I did like the chap pouring blackpowder directly from an open pop bottle.

and the chap "counting" his measure...



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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby acecat999 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:43 pm

given that the most common research of the papers now they can't hack your mobile is to look at your facebook/youtube.

i would have thought posting a "playing with guns" video is simply asking for it should something go wrong by accident


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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby SirRustbucket » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:11 pm

I must admit, I haven't got a clue about ancient guns and proper gunpowder use at all.

Could someone educate me and explain what it is I'm seeing?


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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Tod » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:51 am

Mad people trying to blow themselves up.



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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby guthrie » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:42 am

I understand that tamping down gunpowder with a lot of force can be a bad idea because you create some friction grain on grain or grain against barrel which might lead to ignition. Also note where the barrels are pointed and how often people move across / over them when they are loaded or being loaded. I suspect also that counting out how much powder you are adding doesn't give you a very accurate measurement. Pouring powder out of a larger bottle might lead to spillage and gives you a nice large amount of gunpowder to explode, rather than a smaller amount, and a plastic bottle, although it wouldn't lead to sparks, isn't necessarily very strong or durable either and is probably vulnerable to sparks.

(Disclaimer - I don't shoot, havn't shot since some 0.22 at school and havn't even watched all of the videos)



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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Fox » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:52 am

  • no gloves to protect the hands, which are the most exposed part of the body.
  • pouring from an open container, so any "flash" of the powder ignites the whole supply in the bottle
  • my biggest concern with the bottle is that it doesn't have a designed "point of failure" like all proper powder horns, for if the powder in it does ignite.
    That might turn out not to be a crisis, or it could turn it into a bomb; I don't like unknowns if you're handling powder.

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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby acecat999 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:53 am

powder comes supplied in plastic bottles. They are meant to be the right thing?


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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:27 am

As long as they are the right sort of intrinsically-safe plastic, not virtually sparking with static as Coke bottles are.


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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Tod » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:03 pm

I don't wear gloves other than to protect my hands from idiots with swords. Saying that after using the handgonne the thought has crossed my mind. I didn't get any burns and I'm not sure how much protection thin gloves would give me given that any damge is more likely to be caused by the rammer flying out, but I am considering it. I can't use thiock gloves as I don't like not being able to feel what I'm doing, I think that adds to the risk as I feel very uncomfortable (not my hands).
Plastic bottles were a point of debate some years ago. one group were using 2ltr coke bottles to transport BP, and that was after the new regs came in. Personally I think you'd be stupid to use one and why would you need/want to in the UK. As for counting, that is what they used to do or so I'm told. Open flasks are common so they must have done it. That doesn't mean we should, I certainly wouldn't and its why my priming flask is adiffernt one to my main charge one.
I've never heard about the grain on grain or grain against barrel ignition, I don't think it could happen, but I'm not so sure about massive compression. To my mind a hammer is not the tool to use.

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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Fox » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:03 pm

acecat999 wrote:powder comes supplied in plastic bottles. They are meant to be the right thing?

The law also says you need to store those plastic bottles in a specifically designed fire resistant wooden box, which should tell you something.

And it would generally be considered bad practice to load a gun directly from the those containers.



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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Dave B » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:30 pm

A couple of things.

1. Gloves. Nothing is going to protect you if the ramrod goes through your hand. However if you are holding the ramrod between your fingers and it goes off then a glove should give some protection against the friction of the ramrod going through them and the muzzle flash. on pole guns and the like where the match is held in the hand they also give protection if you mess up and put your forefinger and thumb too close to the touchole flash (I've done this when things have gone pear-shaped and I've had to hurry). For this reason I wear a glove on my right hand (which I use to ram the gun and light it) but not my left hand which I use to get the wad out of my pouch etc. this one is a bit of a matter of taste though I think.

2. Plastic bottles. Plastic bottles are excellent for storing powder. with a lid on they are spark proof, and they transmit heat badly, so if the bottle does do in a fire the plastic is softened enough to hold little compression by the time the heat gets through enough to light the powder. the HSE did tests of this. Static should not be an issue. Modern powder is almost impossible to spark detonate. Static hazards used to be in the HSE advice but I believe theyve done tests that show it is almost impossible to detonate powder even with a serious spark.

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_exp ... parks.html

However most people decant powder into some sort of a safety flask, which allows you to pour a measured amount of powder past the safety valve before tipping it into the gun.

3. The hammer.
I don't think you can detonate powder that way, unless you had a ferrous end on your rammer, or some contamination with something ferrous. breechloading guns often use a hammer in loading, I just can't see the point as as far as I am aware it is neither authentic nor effective in a muzzle loading gun.

4. Paper cartridges.
Some people pour from a paper cartridge and then use the paper as a wad. I don't like this as I believe it is a slightly post-medieval technique, but also because the rammed paper is quite a hard projectile compared to the unspun wool we use. IMHO Loading the powder in a paper cartridge is very dodgy in a muzzleloader. the blast will tear up the cartidge and flatten the back bit against the breech, where it could continue to smoulder until you pour more powder in - really don't like this.

5. Measuring against time.
I dont like this for 2 reasons. Firstly it means that you have an open flask pouring, and if you get a spark then the whole lot goes up. this is something that would not happen with individual appostles of powder, and should not happen with a proper safety flask. My second concern is that you put the wrong amount of powder in. Too much should not be a big problem as blank fireing does not put that much stress on the barrel compared to ball. too little is likely to cause a missfire, and worming guns is dangerous.

Thats the worst of it I can see, appart from the obvious putting faces over the barrel and closing the thumb over the ramrod, which you see several times.


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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Fox » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:48 pm

Like Dave, I usually wear a single glove, for all the reasons he gives; sometimes I wear two, depending on the circumstances.
And I wouldn't be suprised if someone can find a picture of me somewhere not wearing a glove at all.

But if ever I was pouring powder from an open flask, perhaps "counting" the measure for authencity reasons [and I can't imagine what inducement would make me do that] then I would want to be wearing a glove.

Often it's not one bit of behaviour that makes one wince so much; it's the combined collection.



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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby acecat999 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:04 pm

all very good points but as fox hinted, even those of us lecturing others are likely to be guilty of some transgressions.

Trouble is, whilst there's rules on ownership and storage... And transportation. method statements of usage are a still a individual or group matter. And guess how many variations there are?

When you pull someone up for a safety thing on the field, even if you are supposedly in charge you can expect confrontation. Been then on both sides.

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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Fox » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:31 pm

acecat999 wrote:Andy duvet
Possibly the bloke who taught dismuss gunners stuff when they started? But that doesn't mean i know more or am an better w.

Dysmas. D Y S M A S.

Actually you illustrate the point well, in that we didn't just learn from you, we learnt from lots of people with lots of experience. And, even though I'm not Dysmas anymore, I keep learning [and I'm sure they do too].

acecat999 wrote:When you pull someone up for a safety thing on the field, even if you are supposedly in charge you can expect confrontation

I'm not afraid of confrontation; I'm afraid of bloody, messy accidents and the paperwork that insues.
If someone disagrees with me over a point of safety I'm prepared to have that conversation and reaccess the risk.
But, ultimately, if it's my battlefield, the buck stops with me.
If it's not my battlefield I have the choice to tow the line, or not take part.
But it is important that we make those decisions.



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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Dave B » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:54 pm

A cross post here, typing at the same time as Fox, but I think we are saying the same thing more or less....

It's just the same as if you go to work on a building site - the employer sets the rules, maybe appoints a safety chap to check on them. you work to those rules or you don't bother.

So if I gun at tewkesbury there is someone there who sets the rules and I do it thier way or don't gun. If I go to berkley it's another guy, with another set of rules. I might not agree with all of them but I do it his way as I don't think there is anything dangerous about them.

What are or are not the right set of rules is a different matter. I suppose that it's also sometimes the case that it is safest to do it the way you are used to because that comes naturally so you don't forget where you are up to


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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby acecat999 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:01 pm

what i was trying to say was there's some aspects of their mode of operation which other people might consider to increases the chances of accident however how much it would increase is a matter of opinion.

gloves - yep a good glove will protect from some muzzle blast but we think you wear gloves so that its easier to find your digits in a nice yellow bag rather than having to search for them before the seagulls eat them

i pulled 2 people up at tewkesbury over something over being in the wrong places more than their actual gun usage, but a know it all water carrier was actually claiming that these 2 guys were "looking down the barrel of their loaded gun" when i was watching them blowing out embers and checking for embers.

she was very adamant that "those gunners are dangerous" don't know why stopped listening to her.

but she still was content to stand in front of them, even though i asked her to move.

go figure.

this lady might have known a lot about gunning. or maybe she just had her way of doing it.
and when you run a field with dozens of different modes of operation it does get difficult to maintain a standard.


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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Fox » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:18 pm

acecat999 wrote:and when you run a field with dozens of different modes of operation it does get difficult to maintain a standard.


Agreed, especially becasue I agree with
Dave B wrote:I suppose that it's also sometimes the case that it is safest to do it the way you are used to because that comes naturally so you don't forget where you are up to



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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby kayleaeloise » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:35 pm

i only wear one glove for gunning, its what ive always done and what im comfortable with.

i think we should use these videos as a how not too with new gunners, and show the tinnys the one with the pig, maybe theyll get out the gun lane quicker then .... or better yet not go in it at all!

and can someone please tell me why )along with all the other things people have pointed out) that they were using matches not slow match to fire the gun in the second video and what looked like a lighter in the third!!! :sweat:



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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Tod » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:52 pm

The clue is in the title MAD PEOPLE and there are loads more like it.



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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby kayleaeloise » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:45 am

Tod wrote:The clue is in the title MAD PEOPLE and there are loads more like it.


theres mad and then theres that!

anyone else hear about the guy who got three of his fingers blown off coz he had his hand over the end of a ram rod? i think it was different period to ours.



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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby acecat999 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:31 am

trouble is that people do cut corners with safety in any aspect of life.
and if you are doing something that is inherently dangerous but have avoided incidents for a long time the it doesn't appear as dangerous.

we all know OF incidents, but some of us only know of them by third or forth hand, we have become detached from the risk.



the video highlights rather slapshod techniques, ones which if the happened on a field would have several people offering advice and guidance.


but at the end of the day, like that silly "jackass" program on television of idiots trying to kill themselves in humourous ways, they also show that you can get away with it. (until you add cars and alcohol off camera)


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Re: Mad people with handgonnes

Postby Dave B » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:53 am

Indeed, I work in construction, and there are two types of people who have the really serious accidents.

One sort are men in thier late teens / early 20's. Either they just think they are immortal or no one has adiquately explained the risks.

the other sort are men in thier 50's and 60's who've been doing it thier whole lives and think they will never be the one because of thier experience. I know of one that died slowly and unpleasantly and another who broke thier back in that way.


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