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Help - 1264 questions

Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 6:26 pm
by IDEEDEE
Hi,

Anyone point me towards some good sources on mid 13th century heraldry/military identification practice (e.g. use of liveries, livery badges, "battle badges" etc.)? Basically, "Battle of Lewes" (for a growing anniversary event) .

Also, the organisers have asked me to comment on a (rough) draft (not mine) of some figures to go on a publicity banner for a Battle of Lewes event see pic. The period is 1264.... not my speciality.. Any real howlers here 13th century bods? (I don't like the helms/Phrygian cap, the boots and the strangely dagged "whatever it is" that the chap in the coif is wearing; but what do I know - me WOR). The guy in the mail on the right is supposed to be helmless (for effect).
All thoughts gratefully received...

banneras.jpg

Re: Help - 1264 questions

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 12:45 pm
by Colin Middleton
My initial feeling is that this is pretty good. I think that phrgyian helms were still in use at this point, though rather out of fashion and I think that the fashion for dagged garments had started, though I'm not sure.

I'd be happier with the guy on the left if he was wearing a kettle helm, rather than whatever that is on his head (it looks like a loaf of bread with a chin strap).

The boots are wrong. I'd stick to shoes and simple ankle boots if I were the artist. I don't know if we see turndowns that side of 1500.

The archers probably shouldn't have swords. They'd be more likly to have axes or possibly maces at this point.

Finally, I'm not that happy with the look of the knight, but I can't put my finger on why. As a matter of preference, I think that his hood should be up, not down. I think that it's the hair that I'm uncomfortable with. Perhaps he should have a fringe?

Best wishes

Re: Help - 1264 questions

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:43 pm
by Brother Ranulf
For heraldry, there is the Matthew Paris roll of arms from the first half of the 13th century; heraldry is still fairly simple at this time but better controlled than it had been in the previous century.

http://home2.btconnect.com/Crusader-Pro ... hields.jpg

The shield "quarterly gules and or, in the first quarter a mullet argent" is for de Vere.

Re: Help - 1264 questions

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:29 pm
by Dingo8MyBaby
IDEEDEE wrote:Hi,

Anyone point me towards some good sources on mid 13th century heraldry/military identification practice (e.g. use of liveries, livery badges, "battle badges" etc.)? Basically, "Battle of Lewes" (for a growing anniversary event) .

Also, the organisers have asked me to comment on a (rough) draft (not mine) of some figures to go on a publicity banner for a Battle of Lewes event see pic. The period is 1264.... not my speciality.. Any real howlers here 13th century bods? (I don't like the helms/Phrygian cap, the boots and the strangely dagged "whatever it is" that the chap in the coif is wearing; but what do I know - me WOR). The guy in the mail on the right is supposed to be helmless (for effect).
All thoughts gratefully received...

banneras.jpg
Here you go. http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/ ... _bible.htm

IMO
Lose the Phrygian caps, boots etc like Colin said. Older helmets used to denote in biblical context the the bad people - ankle hight boots only or footed mail chause.
'Dagged' hood nope, tunic yes, but look at the examples, its more a scallop than a dag.
Linen coifs, mail hoods over basic secrets or secrets over mail coifs.

Re: Help - 1264 questions

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:15 pm
by IDEEDEE
Yay!! Thanks guys..... Will pass comments on (artist also makes plastic figures I understand, so contributions of knowledge may help him think about doing some 13thC stuff..).

Extra question: Beards? 1260's... From the contemporary images I've hunted out almost all chaps, 'cept elders/counsellors & the odd king, seem to have no facial hair... Would the (very) rough rule of thumb of "clean shaven" (i.e. had a shave some time in the last week or so) for lower classes & most fighting men, but with facial hair (full set) for occasional, older high-ups (possibly the king, but not Simon De Montfort - going by the BL image of his death/mutilation) be ok?

Re: Help - 1264 questions

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:42 am
by Chris T
The fashion for dagging had started (see Maj Bible...where I believe this gambeson is taken from).

Coifs are fine, (even one that look like loafs of bread :-)) and long boots were worn, but ankle boots shoes are a much safer bet, as said above.
Archers (and almost all other classes) were actually legally supposed to have swords!

Artistic or no, the knight should have a helmet: to portray him in a cervallier with mail coil pulled down would probabbly be much more accurate, and you could still get the hair /face thing (if it must be).

All in all, could be much worse: but they do look a bit like plastic figures........

Re: Help - 1264 questions

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:38 pm
by Colin Middleton
Chris T wrote:Archers (and almost all other classes) were actually legally supposed to have swords!
Hi Chirs,

I've heard things like that for later centuries, but not for the 13th C. Can you please point me toward a reference?

Many thanks

Re: Help - 1264 questions

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 1:10 pm
by Chris T
I am away from my stuff at the moment, but off the top of my head the Statute of Winchester (among others).

Re: Help - 1264 questions

Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 12:29 pm
by Colin Middleton
That would make sense. I tend to concentrate on the other end of the century!

Thanks

Re: Help - 1264 questions

Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 12:07 am
by Chris T
Assize of Arms 1253:
scilicet, ad
quindecim libratas terrae, unam loricam, capellum ferreum,
gladium, cultellum et equum ; ad decem libratas terrae unum
habergetum, capellum ferreum, gladium et cultellum ; ad
centum solidatas terrae unum purpunctum, capellum ferreum,
gladium, lanceam et cultellum ; ad quadraginta solidatas
terrae, et ep amplius ad centum solidatas terrae, gladium,
arcum, sagittas et cultellum. Qui minus habent quam
quadraginta solidatas terrae, jurati sint ad falces, gisarmas,
cultellos et alia arma minuta. Ad catalla sexaginta marcarum,
unam loricam, capellum ferreum, gladium, cultellum et equum :
ad catalla quadraginta marcarum, unum haubercum, capellum
ferreum, gladium et cultellum ; ad catalla viginti marcarum,
untim purpunctum, capellum ferreum, gladium et cultellum ;
ad catalla novem marcarum, gladium, cultellum, arcum et
sagittas ; ad catalla quadraginta solidorum et eo amplius
usque ad decem marcas, falces, gisarmas et alia arma minuta.
Omnes etiam illi qui possunt habere arcus et sagittas extra
forestam, habeant ; qui vero in forest a, habeant arcus et
pilatos.