Wooden Buckler From Hull

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Rob. N
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Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby Rob. N » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:29 pm

Hello All

Over the passed 4 months i've been visiting the East Riding Museum in Hull quite often. being a re-enacter and it only being a stones throw away from my college.

One item that has taken my fancy is a wooden buckler in the medieval section dated to the 14th century (faced with leather). Today i thought i'd take my camera and take a few snaps for people who may share this similar interest :D

IMG_0448.JPG

IMG_0449.JPG

IMG_0457.JPG


was wondering what people thought of it.

could this be considered a cheaper, poors mans buckler? or just a buckler for use in a civilian city setting?



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zauberdachs
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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby zauberdachs » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:06 am

That's quite interesting, is the boss just a flat piece of iron?


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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby Simon Atford » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:24 am

could this be considered a cheaper, poors mans buckler? or just a buckler for use in a civilian city setting?


Possibly or it might be that wooden bucklers were more common in the C14th. All metal bucklers not coming in untill the C15th.
Last edited by Simon Atford on Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby Rob. N » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:37 am

is the boss just a flat piece of iron?


its a piece of leather.

Possibly or it might be that wooden bucklers were more common in the C14th. All metal bucklers not coming in untill the C15th.


is there any evidence to suggest that these might have continued into the 15th century? as the information card said that it was one of two surviving wooden bucklers. can't think where the other one might be.



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Simon Atford
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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby Simon Atford » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:53 am

Just to clarify my post. What I meant was that bucklers mafe enitirely of metal did not really come in untill the C15th.



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby cloudy-cola-corp » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:41 pm

i think somewhere else on here someone was talking about leather and wood bucklers as a waster similar to the wooden waster swords?



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby Mick,M » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:27 am

so if its a buckler why have a big hole in the middle? The handle looks tall enough to get your hand though, so no need for for it,
then go and cover it with a bit of leather? a weak spot or what?
I would have thought a metal boss with a wooden rim like regia sheilds would be a better just a thought?



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby bonnacon » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:34 pm

Great pictures, lovely detail, thanks Rob !
Like the green wood blog too - have PM'd you


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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby gregory23b » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:01 pm

Does the 'handle' fit the palm easily? I ask because Mick's observation is interesting, could it be something entirely not a buckler, but a cover or something?


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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby EnglishArcher » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:49 pm

Simon Atford wrote:Just to clarify my post. What I meant was that bucklers mafe enitirely of metal did not really come in untill the C15th.


I claim very little knowledge of armour history. What is the construction of the bucklers shown in the Tower Fechtbuch (MS I:33):

Image

MS I:33 is consistently dated to the late 13th / early 14th Century. And that (top) buckler looks like a single-piece metal construct to me. I guess it could be a cuir boulli structure.

Personally, I don't think the Hull artefact is a buckler. Apart from its rough shape and (presumably) size it doesn't show any of the characteristics you expect in a buckler. Looks more like a lid to me.


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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby Simon Atford » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:14 pm

The buckler in left of the first picture is a very peculiar looking shape whilst those in the second could be wood with a metal boss or all metal. Hard to tell.

I don't think the Hull artefact is a buckler. Apart from its rough shape and (presumably) size it doesn't show any of the characteristics you expect in a buckler. Looks more like a lid to me.


I think you could be right there :roll:



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby Mick,M » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:21 am

I was thinking pot lid/cover may be?



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby KeithFarrell » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:22 pm

Simon Atford wrote:The buckler in left of the first picture is a very peculiar looking shape whilst those in the second could be wood with a metal boss or all metal. Hard to tell.


Many of the 15th and 16th century manuscripts that contain pictures and information about sword and buckler fighting have some pretty odd buckler designs and shapes! In fact, "normal" looking bucklers are in the minority, most of the illustrations in the fechtbucher seem to be elongated and pointy shapes, or just otherwise mad!


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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby guthrie » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:43 pm

If it is a pot cover, why the hole in the middle? I am sympathetic to the idea of it not being a buckler, but can't work out why you would want a pot cover with a hole in the middle right where the steam can scald you when you try and lift it off.

On the other hand, having a handle running from edge to edge is similar to the pictures posted above, and I was under the impression that the central hole would be covered by a small piece of iron anyway, which again would be the shiny central bit in the pictures above.



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby zauberdachs » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:48 pm

The handles in the above images are probably flush though with the knuckles going into the boss rather than needing the handle to curve outwards. The hole could be to allow you to put something in, like a masher for example, and mash without taking the lid off? Pure speculation.

Quite a few of the "Viking" bosses in the NMS are pointed / cone-like in a fashion similar to the i.33 manuscript. From a practical point of view is it quite a useful shape. It deflects blows better, can be used offensively to a limited extent and it also allows you to bind in a way a rounded buckler doesn't.


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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby zauberdachs » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:53 pm

Just been looking through the "Archaeology of York, small finds 17/13" (ISBN1902771109) that focuses on Wood and Woodworking. Pages 2262 - 2265 has wooden pot lids and almost all of the examples given have holes, apparently for stoppers.


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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby guthrie » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:29 pm

Ok, thats interesting then, makes it more likely a cauldron cover.



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby Simon Atford » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:18 pm

Whose going thell the East Riding Museum then?



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby Rob. N » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:26 pm

Just been looking through the "Archaeology of York, small finds 17/13" (ISBN1902771109) that focuses on Wood and Woodworking. Pages 2262 - 2265 has wooden pot lids and almost all of the examples given have holes, apparently for stoppers.


It is a good point that it does match with pot lids found in york. however if you look at the construction in these pictures you will notiice that the grain of the wood runs horizontal but the layer underneath the grain runs vertically (pic 1). this sugests the that the buckler is two thin planks of wood stacked together (pic 2) with the grain running on opposites.
pic 1.JPG

pic 2.JPG


this design would be a lot of work for a simple lid to cover a pot. what benefit would odd running grain give to a lid? (and alot of arseing around for a crafts person) and all the lids found in york are are just one slab of wood not stacked together slabs.

this would design would (in theory) be benefical to a buckler as it would mean the wood would no split when struck with a sharp implement on the edge. plus this would also mean the buckler can be made lighter and stronger without adding more weight.

Also if it is a pot lid why add the leather? if you want to put a stopper on it the leather prevents this.

I guess it could be a cuir boulli structure.


Just wondering here, as i don't know much about cuir boulli. when was cuir boulli popular? also if cuir boulli was used to protect mens ligaments from sharp implements , why not use it in a buckler? serves the same purpose?



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby Rob. N » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:32 pm

also if cuir boulli was used to protect mens ligaments from sharp implements , why not use it in a buckler? serves the same purpose?


Assuming that it is cuir boulli though :D



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby The Methley Archer » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:43 am

I wouldn't be happy holding a buckler with a leather boss thats going to take a lot of punishment. If it was a buckler where are the fixing holes for whatever eas used as the boss?


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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby Simon Atford » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:41 am

Perhaps it is a buckler but just a rubbish one?



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby wulfenganck » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:47 am

The Methley Archer wrote:I wouldn't be happy holding a buckler with a leather boss thats going to take a lot of punishment. If it was a buckler where are the fixing holes for whatever eas used as the boss?
I'll subscribe to that. From a practical approach, i.e. training quite a lot with sword and buckler, I know what impact and force a buckler has to withstand even for a simple technical training - not to mention a more "serious" and dedicated bout. And I think we are by far bigger whimps concerning pain-endurance nowadays compared to a regular trained fighter back then. Even the "pimped" leather version cuir boulli doesdn't really convince me.



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby zauberdachs » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:05 pm

Rob. N wrote:this design would be a lot of work for a simple lid to cover a pot. what benefit would odd running grain give to a lid? (and alot of arseing around for a crafts person) and all the lids found in york are are just one slab of wood not stacked together slabs.


Indeed. However it does answer the question about why lids would have holes in them. The fact that it doesn't look like these few lids from one site could simply mean that it is a different type of a lid for a different purpose.

Rob. N wrote:Also if it is a pot lid why add the leather? if you want to put a stopper on it the leather prevents this.


Could be a leather flap of some sort? The hole seems rather large for a stopper and placed directly below the handle it would rather inconvenience putting in a stopper.

Rob. N wrote: also if cuir boulli was used to protect mens ligaments from sharp implements , why not use it in a buckler? serves the same purpose?


Leather is useful to protect against glancing blows from sharp objects so does tolerably well on your extremities. Steel bosses get pummelled very quickly even against wooden weapons so I imagine that a flat, leather boss would be useless to protect your hand. Still doesn't mean that it isn't a buckler, there hasn't been "knock out" evidence either way yet.


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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:07 pm

Could it be a leather lining for an iron boss?

There are square (16-17th C) duelling bucklers in Glasgow, which I think are made of wood, probably faced with leather. Could there be a clue in that.

Or is it just the top of a bellows?

Don't have any answers, just throwing a few daft ideas in!


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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby zauberdachs » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:12 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:Or is it just the top of a bellows?


Good thought!


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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby Hobbitstomper » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:24 pm

Very good thought. One of those big bag ones. Or the top of a bellows powered musical instrument like an organ.



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby guthrie » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:35 pm

Bellow, well....
I have somewhere in my library a 16th century continental illustration which shows horizontal mounded bellows which you work by pushing back and forth, with the handle bit looking a bit like the artefact above.
On the other hand, I've never seen an English illustration of anything like that in the medieval period, and actual industrial processes call for larger long normal type bellows. So I have doubts.

For powering an organ, what I've seen have been the fan type which are operated by squeezing two levers together.



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Re: Wooden Buckler From Hull

Postby Tod » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:03 am

The "other" leather buckler is in the MoL. I have picture or drawing of it some where.
The planks on Highland targes are also pegged and set at 90 degrees to each other, they are also covered in leather.

If it is pot cover the small hole could be there to let steam out just like a modern lid, or am I way off with that?

I've made moulded leather bucklers with no wood, the handles I've done are steel covered with leather, how you would attach wood I have no idea. I could do wood and leather ones as I have the mould for the centre.




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