Page 1 of 1

question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:58 pm
by CraigofYork
if the picture uploads correctly....was this type of kettle hat common in England during the 2nd half of the 15th century? was it worn by English soldiers? i have a number of images portraying French/European soldiers wearing them and the English (in the same picture) wearing various types of sallet.....any thoughts?

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:23 pm
by Stuart Quayle
Hi Craig

The kettlehat in your photograph could be termed a visorless sallet, the destinction between kettlehat and sallet can become very blurred at times.

A good example of the above is the German 'eyeslot' helmet. If the brim is constructed by simply hammering down the sides of the helm basin and it remains as one piece with the basin the helmet is termed a 'sallet', if however the brim is fabricated by riveting on a separate lower panel to the basin (even though the two helmets are otherwise identical in shape) it is then deemed a kettlehelmet.

Regards
Stuart

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:22 pm
by CraigofYork
makes sense! thanks Stuart - i guess this could also be interpreted as the tilted sallet i have often seen in 15th century images, they are often not clear...

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:45 am
by Dave B
As far as I can tell the word Sallet did not mean a specific type of helmet at the time, it might have just meant 'Helmet' so I guess you have to be a little careful with these distinctions.

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:53 pm
by Fox
Quite.

Modern usages of the modern words for helmets (and most other medieval items for that matter) are useful accademic categorisations, but do not have equivelent meanings in medieval speech and writing and as such are arbitary and non-presise; i.e. we can't say they would have called this a sallet and that a helm.

However, regardless of what we call them, I believe the original question was "Is this helmet style worn by English soldiers?"

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:22 pm
by CraigofYork
yes it is Fox, interesting points made non the less!

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:19 pm
by MarxMan
As far as I can tell the word Sallet did not mean a specific type of helmet at the time

IIRC shaller means something like tailed hemet. Design made popular by germans. Any sallet has some kind of 'tail' to cover back of the neck whise still aloving to move your head without restrictions. Even if 'tail' is realy short it is noticeable comparet to helmets of other styles like armet or grand bacinet for example.
Damn, i cant find apropriate english words to translate terminology. :silent:

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:42 pm
by CraigofYork
don't worry MarxMan i'm pickin' up what your putting down! sallet is the term used to describe a helmet that has a neck guard or tail integrated into it's shape unlike an armet or bascinet whitch has no such form of neck protection

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:13 pm
by MarxMan
Well almost. Both of those types of helmets were different from sallets, but in different ways.
Grand bascinet usualy protectd neck from all sides without any gaps, but such kind of helmet was so big and heavy that it was mounted on shoulders and you cant rturn your head in it or look up or down.
Armet perfectly covered neck from the front and partialy from behind, but there was small gap, especialy when you look down or turn your head sideways. This gap sometimes covered with mailed collar, but it isnt wery effective protection.
Sallet do not protects neck and lower jaw ( face at all if itis open-faced wariant) from the front, to cover it bevor is used, but back of your neck is always protected with the tail no matter how do you turn your head.

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:29 am
by CraigofYork
yes gotcha - i was thinking about just the back of the neck

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:18 pm
by Fox
MarxMan wrote:
As far as I can tell the word Sallet did not mean a specific type of helmet at the time

IIRC shaller means something like tailed hemet. Design made popular by germans. Any sallet has some kind of 'tail' etc.


But schaller [I think that's the usual spelling] is not an equivelent to sallet, except perhaps under modern usages of both words.

Sallet probably comes from the Italian for conceal and seems to be used in English interchangabley with the word helm in 15thC English.

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:05 pm
by CraigofYork
so would "helm" have been used as a generic term for helmets, in the same way most people use "gun" as ageneric term for firearms?

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:45 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
Yes...and no.
Because sometimes the author of a text is using the term to describe a certain item ie "those bills that are known as glaives", sometimes it is used to describe a generic term like the Coventry men who were sent to fight for Edward with jack, sallet and bow (but issued with brigadine and maille as well/in place of a jack according to the town inventry). Italians also called sallet celata, and some celata were called barbuta at least by modern experts.

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:03 pm
by MarxMan
But schaller [I think that's the usual spelling] is not an equivelent to sallet

Not sure about that. As any german schaller ( with distinctive properties of those helmets) is still called sallet. Milanese made armor in german style and those helmets were called sallets too. Tail was bit shorter but still was there. While other milanese helmets had different names.

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:29 pm
by Fox
MarxMan wrote:
But schaller [I think that's the usual spelling] is not an equivelent to sallet

Not sure about that. As any german schaller ( with distinctive properties of those helmets) is still called sallet. Milanese made armor in german style and those helmets were called sallets too. Tail was bit shorter but still was there. While other milanese helmets had different names.

Well, I'm always willing to learn. Do you have any evidence for that?

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:11 pm
by MarxMan
WEll, here is the trouble 8-) Any evidence except document written in milanese armories can be discounted by unwilling. But actualy it is acknowledged fact that sallet is type of helmet. ( though i presume there IS a small chance that such name for this type of helmets were assigned by historials, but i never seen evidence for that)
I doubt that i can give you russian historical armor guides as proof ( those books aernt sold outside of eastern europe).

There are links to other sites like that http://www.myarmoury.com/search/index.p ... rmoury.com

This one is good example, because photo of original posted near i,age of replica. http://www.myarmoury.com/othr_sallet.html

Journals of Osprey publishing, where helmets of this type are called sallets no matter where those were made - in Italy, HRE or England.

Still there is other less reliable and less respected way. Google :D
Milanese sallet, milanese armet, milanese barbute etc.

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:44 pm
by Fox
@MarxMan
You appear to be confusing modern meanings of the words and how those words would [probably] have been used in the 15thC; that is to say, it appears you are missing Dave B's original point.
Is that possible?

CraigofYork wrote:so would "helm" have been used as a generic term for helmets, in the same way most people use "gun" as ageneric term for firearms?

I think so, quite often.
And it appears that the term "sallet" was also used as a generic term.
In modern idiom, much as all vaccum cleaners were called "hoovers" for a while and all sticky backed plastic is still nearly always "cellotape".

This does not mean that a more precise meaning wasn't also sometimes intended, but I think that goes a little beyond what I can determine at this distance [no doubt someone, somewhere is an expert on that].

I would also speculate that 15thC usage of bevoir and gorget also have the same, interchangable non-specific meaning, i.e. neck armour, although we would now understand those words to be two similar, but distinctly different styles [based on import records when compared to finds/illustrations].

All that is not even that unlikely when you think about it; being a man I use the words skirt and dress interchangabley in speech, although I am aware that are technically different and what that difference is.

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:05 pm
by Dave B
CraigofYork wrote:so would "helm" have been used as a generic term for helmets, in the same way most people use "gun" as ageneric term for firearms?


Yep, except that the word Gun might not have specifically meant gun either, looks to me as though for a good chunk of the medieval period it also encompassed things like trebs and perriers, and even ladders, generaly machines of warfare (same routes as engine?). In the same way that artilliary may often have meant all military baggage (from the french for list)

Slippery thing, language.

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:55 pm
by MarxMan
it appears you are missing Dave B's original point.
Is that possible

Oh. Now im confused. I guess i need to re-read whole thread.

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:28 am
by Marcus Woodhouse
Burgundian ordiances include crossbows, bolts and arrows (but not bows for some bizarre reason) as being part of the artillery train.

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:44 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
I am not surprised Marxman as the discussion touches on the way language was used and is used.
You are intellegent and have worked hard to understand a language that is not your own, I would love to learn Russian one day and if I did I know that I could depend upon someone like you to correct my mispronouciation or ensure that the word I used was the right one for the context I mean it to.
But we cannot ask confirmation from those who wrote chronicles 500 years ago what they exactly meant because they, and the language they used is dead to us.
Think about the word lance.
If I asked most people what a lance was those that knew would tell me that it was a large spear used by cavalry, this is of course true and would have been a correct use of the word 500 years ago, but it was also an administrative term for a small group of soldiers and one that differed according to time and geographical location (a French lance of 1405 was comprised differentally to one of 1444 or 1494, a Venetian lance was smaller than a Neopolitian one, etc).
I think of a sallet being a closed face helmet with or without a rising visor but the term sallet/celata was used in literature to describe helmets that we would call "Secrets" and "Barbuta" as well (and both terms were also used at the time to describe helemts we would call sallets).
If you asked a modern armourer or at least someone who makes reproduction armour they may explain that a sallet is raised from one peice of metal while a "kettle helm" (which was known to its contemporaries as a Chapel de fer or war hat) has a rim attached to a dome. Afterall some war hats had side cheeks, nose guards or a rim so low that like a sallet they were peierced with eye slots.
So in contempary literature a sallet could mean a specific type of helmet, one that we would identify today as a sallet, but it could also refer to a range of helmets with or without full facial protection (but which were known not to be chapel de fer/kettle helms by the author) or as a generic catch all expression that meant any and all forms of head protection.
As many of the authors of the various chronicles were clergy or religous I would suspect that the latter would be most likely the case, but at the same time some of those writing would have had military experience and taken great pride in being as specific in their recording as Tom Clancy is when he writes about the latest in high tech weapons.

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:13 am
by Mark Griffin
I think if your question is 'if I buy this for WOTR re-enactment as a soldier will I get told its wrong' the answer is no.

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:20 am
by gregory23b
"If you asked a modern armourer or at least someone who makes reproduction armour they may explain that a sallet is raised from one peice of metal while a "kettle helm" (which was known to its contemporaries as a Chapel de fer or war hat) has a rim attached to a dome."

You might find he would say later 'kettle hats' would be one piece, (Martyrdom of St Ursula f. ex) the strips and edging seem to come from an earlier time.

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:37 pm
by Friesian
Marcus Woodhouse wrote:Burgundian ordiances include crossbows, bolts and arrows (but not bows for some bizarre reason) as being part of the artillery train.


Perhaps the archers were carrying their own bows ?

Re: question about a type of kettle hat

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:00 pm
by CraigofYork
well, thankyou for the replies - been a great help, when i save up i know i can get this sallet and not get told off - and i know know the difference between a sallet and kettle hat, so i have something to talk to the public about....good job everyone and thanks again for the replies!