Scale Armour

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Earl Mortimer
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Scale Armour

Postby Earl Mortimer » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:05 pm

Moved from another thread

any one know any good information books web sites on scale armour and time period (11th cent to 14th cent) / Construction etc.

I need to research this topic has i'm about to use some scale plates and i want to get it right first time.


Shane

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Earl Mortimer
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Re: Scale Armour

Postby Earl Mortimer » Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:35 pm

Only ask has I've a number of scales and just wondered what construction of the backing used leather / cloth or both

Was it a full wrap around like later visby coat of plates and tied at the back?

Or

Was it a front and back construction. Tied at the side and on the shoulders?

Did scale thigh protect happen or was the statue I saw on the bridge at prague an artist impression.


I've been looking on the net but havn't found much. It My be me looking in the wrong place.

What was the time line in use. I've seen in the osprey book a few artist drawing but I've been told not to trust them?

Hope some one can point me in the right direction

Thanks


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Re: Scale Armour

Postby Benedict » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:52 pm

Scale armour in which bit of the world? For 11-14th century it's likely to be mostly in the Islamic/Byzantine world, gradually being introduced to the West.

I'm sure others will correct me, but (as I understand it) the Western 'pair of plates' may have originated in Spain, first in hardened leather and then quite rapidly in metal, and evolved into smaller, more flexible segments, ie the coat of plates.

I suspect there's a strong link between the extent of using sharp pointy weapons (eg arrows) and the use of 'hard' armour (eg scale, lamellar, coat of plates). Massed archery was much more popular in the eastern Mediteranean where, oddly enough, lamellar armour was extensively used. Bows become a more widespread weapon of war in the West, and the coat of plates evolves.

If you're particularly interested in the earlier end of this period (ie use in the eastern world), could I suggest that you contact Timothy Dawson? He's on this forum and is immensely knowledgable - he gave me a lot of helpful advice when looking at the different forms of lamellar used by Islamic and Byzantine armies in the eleventh and twelfth centuries.



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Re: Scale Armour

Postby MarxMan » Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:35 am

Massed archery was much more popular in the eastern Mediteranean where, oddly enough, lamellar armour was extensively used.

It happened due terrain and climatic conditions. Due extreme cold or heat and great travel distances trough uninhabited armor that can be transported and donned esier was much more popular.

And yes, name type of scale armor you are interested in. There are just too much different kinds in easter europe.


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Re: Scale Armour

Postby Earl Mortimer » Sat Dec 25, 2010 11:49 am

Cheers for the info guys

I'm trying to find out if scale or even lamler. Came over to british shores

I've seen one brass engraving of a knight in the 14 th century with what looks to be scale over his mail just showing coming out of his surcoat. But that's it

I've seen osprey drawing with Walsh warriors wearing scale. But I was told that they can't be trusted

So did scale have limited time line use in British history ?


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Re: Scale Armour

Postby MarxMan » Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:01 pm

Well, english knights practicipated in crusades so they had many chances to pick such kind of suits. After all even some japanese warlords had european armor. but still, maybe it was coat of plates?

14th century knight? Well i doubt it was fish scale like that.
Image
Because such style of armor was reeealy outdated for 14th century. Lamellar armor was lighter, more flexible, easier to produce, repair and had kind of better protection.
Such kinds of lamellars were popular among russian, mongolian and some middle eastern warriors.
Russians. This one is quite accurate, like examples from museum /
Image
Second pic is not that accurate, just to show that while mongolian armor looked different, it actualy used same methods of production.
Image

Actualy if you posted picture of this knight in armor - it would help to understand what kind of armor it mght be.

PS Also scale mail definetly came to british shores. With romans, saxons, normans etc :D


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Re: Scale Armour

Postby Benedict » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:34 pm

As MarxMan says, participation in the Crusades certainly exposed western Europe to lamellar armour. The technology was certainly known of, both through the crusades/Islamic world and through Byzantium (with plenty of contact over a very long period of time - and conscious artistic borrowings in tenth/eleventh-century Germany).

The interesting thing is that the West did not adopt lamellar armour until the thirteenth/fourteenth centuries ('pair of plates'/'coat of plates'). Quite why is an interesting question. It's possible that it was seen as distinctively Islamic and therefore not suitable for Christians... but that doesn't work given the use by Byzantine armies and its adoption in Norman Sicily.

Personally, I suspect there's a mix of the technology not being necessary (maille and padding provided perfectly adequate protection against the weapons in common use; coats of plates start to appear at around the point where massed archery becomes popular and very effective) and the maintenance being a nuisance (lamellar has lots of straps/thongs which need to be cared for and replaced, and the (relatively) damp European climate encourages rot much more than the (drier) Mediterranean).

I'm not aware of scale mail being used in the west, and certainly not by the Saxons or Normans - though I'm very happy to be corrected.

As for it appearing in Wales, I would be extremely skeptical. If there's evidence for it, I'd be very interested to hear... but I would be slightly surprised. Medieval Wales wasn't a particularly wealthy place, and tended towards light infantry warfare where armour wasn't necessary. I'd assume that the nobility would model itself on the Anglo-Norman/English elites when they wanted to appear up to date.



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Re: Scale Armour

Postby zauberdachs » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:14 am

They found lamellar at Wisby.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wisby

If you can lay your hands on this book there is plenty of detailed information on this kind of armour construction:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Armour-Battle-W ... 397&sr=8-1


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Re: Scale Armour

Postby Mark Griffin » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:14 pm

After all even some japanese warlords had european armor


but only after the 1520's and as i don't have my Ian Eaves in front of me i can't check but I think the earliest surviving bit is pretty late 16th cent.


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Re: Scale Armour

Postby Tiddles » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:55 pm

Do you mean scale witch is lots of small overlapping plates stiched to a faberic or leather backing. Or Lamilla witch is larger plates laced together?

The first picture from MarxMan is scale but the third picture is Lamilla and will set you back about £400 :o

I



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Re: Scale Armour

Postby WorkMonkey3 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:12 pm

£400 is good!
Decent set of rivetted mail will cost 300-400 bucks.



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Re: Scale Armour

Postby Tiddles » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:43 pm

WorkMonkey3 wrote:£400 is good!
Decent set of rivetted mail will cost 300-400 bucks.


Yes and it looks nice too.

I did consider it but he only uses 1mm thick plates witch I think is too thin, I could be wrong :?

And the design is very Asian :thumbdown: Would love to find a way of using it as a Viking :D

To help with Earl Mortimer,s original question we do need pics of ether the armour he wants to build or the components he has.
Most of the info I have on Scale and Lamella is of Asian origin.

Tiddles.



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Re: Scale Armour

Postby Mark Griffin » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:51 pm

I did consider it but he only uses 1mm thick plates witch I think is too thin, I could be wrong


Do some research, you will find out how thick they need to be. As I have said before, its not my period, but get the David Nicolle book from your library and if he doesn't go into that detail then his bibliography will cover something that does. I know of some lovely bronze scales from Masada but that's 1st cent of course.

However, 1mm INMHO is too thick, most compostite scale armour that depends on overlapping plates is a bit thinner. But are you wanting to do combat with blunt weaponry and therefore willing to sacrifice 'authenticity' for protection or what?


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Re: Scale Armour

Postby Skevmeister » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:30 pm

Get the Wisby book anyway. It has loads in it for making unusual peices of armour. And that's a bllody good price at a=Amzon as well as I paid £70 quid for mine


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Re: Scale Armour

Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:36 pm

Big fat 2nd to Skev's comment. Its another must have book. Sell 10 Ospreys if you have to! You'll need to sell a lot more for when Toby's book arrives :-)

Do I really need 'Tibetan Palace Fire Watcher 1720-1798'?


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Earl Mortimer
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Re: Scale Armour

Postby Earl Mortimer » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:57 pm

Im really trying to find the pictures. One has a knight with forearm protectures that are clearly scale plates and the other is a knight with scale plates between his surcoat and mail. But I can't find them. I sure I've seen them and there knights between 1300/ 1340 ish ???

I'm also trying to put together armour that sir Roger Mortimer would have worn in 1329 at the height of his power.

The main point is what body armour was they wearing over there mail? Was it a coat of plate at this time in history or something else

Any help would be grateful.

Thankyou


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Earl Mortimer
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Re: Scale Armour

Postby Earl Mortimer » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:05 pm



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Re: Scale Armour

Postby Earl Mortimer » Fri May 20, 2011 7:38 pm

I've found the picture.

Osprey. Crecy. Page 89

Shows a mid 14 th knight with scale armour over mail. Under his surcoat


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Re: Scale Armour

Postby RottenCad » Sun May 22, 2011 6:06 pm

Actually, just seeing scale armour on the poster for Ridley Scott / Russell Crowe's "Robin Hood" was enough to stop me going ...


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