Moved topic (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

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Charles1st
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Moved topic (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Charles1st » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:33 am

Am just starting out with a group of friends but we're going for as authentic as we can 12th century 3rd crusade templar impression. I know there are sites out there that sell this stuff but im struggling to find bits and second hand (looking worn) would be great, please post a reply or p.m if you have what im looking for!

Need:
12th century shirt or a similar suitable one for a medium chest (39-42)
A pair of medieval trousers (32-38 waist)
Some hose
Some turn shoes, or 12th century footwear (size 10)
Pot helm of some variety or spangenhelm

and the most important need! a long gambeson crusader style

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Last edited by Alice the Huswyf on Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: A "want" title that specifies requirements will catch more interest and therefore more help - topic moved fro buy and sell to retain interesting discussion



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Re: WTB the following

Postby Mark Griffin » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:21 am

we're going for as authentic as we can


A definition of that would be good for starters. You might wait a while to get the right 2nd hand stuff so below iswhere you can get the new stuff. Then wear it for housework, gardening, practice etc and they'll start to look worn quickly enough. And smell right too.

but ignore this old cynic, I wish you luck in your efforts.

Debbie at Padded armour co would be a good bet for your gambeson.

Plantagenet shoes, sarah juniper, annas shoes or re-enactment shoes (Tod who posts on here, does pouches and belts too) for your footware.

Clothing

All I'll say for your helmet is GOT TO AN ARMOURER. Don't buy mass produced cak off ebay.


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Re: WTB the following

Postby Nigel » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:17 am

Debs can do the clothing too and I think we can do pretty much all of that from stock


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Charles1st » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:15 pm

Cheers for the edit, thanks for those links ill check them out, being part of two other self styled authentic groups, i just wanna get it right. Ive noticed there are far fewer primary sources than acw and ww2 obviously. So its gonna take a lot of research how much room is there for interpetation?



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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Mark Griffin » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:34 pm

Oh there is MASSIVE amounts of room for interpretation. Trouble is, its also accompanied by a 1:1 ratio with criticism.

When you say very accurate you want to think what you even mean by that. Pictorial sources are a minefield of interpretation, surviving garments rare, rather specific and fragmentary.

Whereas ACW etc eras can be easily recreated, the era you have chosen is a very long time ago and a lot of raw materials and techniques are either lost, dangerous, difficult to aquire and replicate. So are you insisting on hand spun, hand dyed, hand woven and sewn cloth? From the best breed of historic sheep available? Can be done but expensive and time consuming. Then you look at your cloth at many hundreds of £'s per yard and are too afraid to cut into it as the patterns vary quite a bit.

Then leather.. chrome, veg or oak and doggy doo tanned? Are your swords forged from period accuarate stock our ground out of modern? Rivets on helmets hand made to match surviving originals or the 30p each ones which reduce your costs but look like they have been machined?

I'm only saying this as a warning for anyone who runs the risk of being shot down in bit hot yellowy orange flames as has happened before.

You'll get lots of advice and starting out from a 'we will get it right' stance is entirely laudable, but tread carefully as the road can be full of pitfalls.

Doom and gloom over, feel free to ask any questions. But as we are all finnicky picky pedants here a good time is to be as ridiculously specific as possible.

Yours,

Griff


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Charles1st » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:48 pm

Thanks mark some very good points made there, i guess the best we can do is try. Ive often heard its the attitude and enthusiasm that makes most of the hobby worth doing! I dont want to give the public or my friends the wrong impression but then again we dont want to be counting every single thread, grabbing peoples garments and enquiring the mix and where it was made.

I guess from what ive read and heard a healthy balance is necessary with tips and pointers from people who have been in the buisness, as ive also heard, we'll never know what its like to fire a shot in anger after months of living in a fox hole, or even to go all the way to the holy land and fight a battle in the blistering sun!

Ill pm you for some advice rather than start to confuse this thread :D



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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Mark Griffin » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:22 pm

or even to go all the way to the holy land and fight a battle in the blistering sun!


speak for yourself!


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby The_Maille_Tailor » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:47 am

Have you tried looking for period documents like the Winchester bible (1170-81) for instance?

There are plenty of dated sources to what people were weaqring in the period and a lot of people portraying C13th characters refer to the Majcieowski (sp?) bible for their items.

The newer Osprey Books are good too as they are well researched and depict items of kit in great detail.

Good luck with your search and maybe we'll see you around somewhere?

If you want references to fighting in blistering sun. my grandfather was on the artillery in Malta in WW2, that close enough? :wink: lol


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Mark Griffin » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:49 am

I'm not claiming active service on behalf of queen and country, but have run about a fair bit of north africa and the middle east on foot and horse with hordes of local extras trying their best to do damage to me. Once you've been up and down a siege ladder in temperatures that make most english people reach for their knotted hankies and strawberry mivvis you do get a bit of a perspective on it. And trying to find a bush in the N sahara with what i can only describe as 'crusader belly' is a bit of a grind too...


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Hobbitstomper » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:58 pm

To provide some pedantry as Mr Griffin suggests…

Spangenhelms are old hat for 1190. Pot helms are too late. I’d go for a single piece nasal helmet, a flower pot type nasal helmet or an early faceplate one. There are big changes in helmets around this time (maybe down to meeting different armies on the crusades) and it is easy to spend a lot of cash on something which is 50 years out.
Trousers are probably out to unless you are foreign.

I think there are written records of what various orders should wear (open to interpretation to). Getting the full list of kit knights are meant to have will involve a lot of sewing or cash. If you can do it, great. Most Templar re-enactors fail.

Most ebay stuff is nasty stuff with a red cross on it, usually made from cotton and cut to fit the largest potential customer. It will look rubbish next to anyone who has put a bit of effort in to it.

My opinions. They might be wrong.



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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Mark Griffin » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:14 pm

I’d go for a single piece nasal helmet, a flower pot type nasal helmet or an early faceplate one.


Yes. But still needs proper rivets!

Code: Select all

Trousers are probably out to unless you are foreign.


or some kind of harem belly dancer possibly. Sngle leg hose as specified in.....

I think there are written records of what various orders should wear
*

Definately. But don't forget they are updated and revised quite a bit and on a local level too.

Most Templar re-enactors fail.


Your words not mine. But damn right!

* The Osprey Hospitaler books are not bad, as is the Outremer one. Not so keen on the Templars.


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby narvek » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:54 am

Be carefull using Maciejowski bible, some of the pics are very artist's licence. It's bible after all, no treatise on contemporary warfare.


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Nigel » Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:44 am

Hobbitstomper wrote:To provide some pedantry as Mr Griffin suggests…

Most Templar re-enactors fail.

Most ebay stuff is nasty stuff with a red cross on it, usually made from cotton and cut to fit the largest potential customer. It will look rubbish next to anyone who has put a bit of effort in to it.

My opinions. They might be wrong.



Unlike Templar Knight whose kit can be seen here

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21167&p=283280#p283280

NOT cheap but a great project to work on


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Charles1st » Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:54 am

Very good nigel looks brilliant, i think when i get my surcoat im gonna trash it just to fit in with our 'travelling theme'



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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby The_Maille_Tailor » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:35 am

narvek wrote:Be carefull using Maciejowski bible, some of the pics are very artist's licence. It's bible after all, no treatise on contemporary warfare.


Fair comment, I'm sure artistic licence is taken into account when people study contemporary sources, otherwise we'd have some fantastic weapons and armour roaming the fields and castles! lol

But a very valid point all the same.

The Winchester Bible is much better in this case as the equipment, clothing and accoutrments seem to be portrayed in a more realistic manner. With some excellent references to early hand protection of full and half mittens. One example of which shows the wearer having a hole for the thumb to pass through, and the cuff of the maille sleeve coming down to knuckle length and around the palm. Another shows full mittens, possibly in the depiction of David and Goliath, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
I find the perspective and scale the medieval illuminator uses is interesting and feel it sometimes helps to tone down the actual barbarity and harmful intentions of those depicted.
Could well be intentional attempt by the church to 'tone down' the actual events of siege so as to make it look more heroic than the coomonly held pestilence that it was?


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:15 am

have to say the soft kit gives the right kind of impression and the mail looks good. What the leather work and that grey (???!!) great helm is dong I don't know.

I use the word 'impression' as i think that's what people should really accept they are doing unless they can copy originals. This is a VERY BROAD generalisation, but unless you are going to find a source that isn't open to interpretation (and for this period, swords, the odd small find, pottery and major bits of stonework are about it!) then its a look, a style, a sillouhette, a design. Having done a fair bit of work on film and tv projects for similar periods, I try and evoke what i see in the images, not worry too much about the minutiae. Easy when you have a decent budget and a bit team but I have managed to kit out 20 'crusaders' with what I could carry on a plane and make on site for sod all have to say when mounted up and going through the desert they looked pretty good.


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:19 am

And another point, following on from what maille tailor is pointing out, is that we have a tendency to use sources as a window shopping list in a way they didn't do. So by picking that hauberk from a french church carving, sheild from a manuscript, etc etc, you end up with a collection of stuff that may well be 50 years across the range if you are not careful.


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Nigel » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:45 pm

Charles1st wrote:Very good nigel looks brilliant, i think when i get my surcoat im gonna trash it just to fit in with our 'travelling theme'



surcotes are an interesting discussion

along with crosses all in their own tright


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Brendan C » Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:50 pm

narvek wrote:Be carefull using Maciejowski bible, some of the pics are very artist's licence. It's bible after all, no treatise on contemporary warfare.


Don't use it all - too late for Third crusade.

Charles, Just out of interest

Which group are you a member of?

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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Charles1st » Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:29 pm

Well im in the 18th Virginia for ACW, Fallschirmjager regiment Hubner for WW2, and im about to start this Templar one with 6 other friends, Thanks for all the posting guys its actually immensely helpful. Ive probably learned more on where to look and what im doing from this topic than i have before i even signed onto the living history forum and ive been looking for at least 3 weeks prior to that!



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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Brendan C » Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:27 am

Charles1st wrote:Well im in the 18th Virginia for ACW, Fallschirmjager regiment Hubner for WW2, and im about to start this Templar one with 6 other friends, Thanks for all the posting guys its actually immensely helpful. Ive probably learned more on where to look and what im doing from this topic than i have before i even signed onto the living history forum and ive been looking for at least 3 weeks prior to that!


Good luck with that - have yet to see a good Templar group. Would advise you contact The Hospitaller Association; they might be able to give you a few pointers

Brendan C


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Nigel » Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:33 am

18th Virginia are a top group

To be honest the first palce you should start is the rule read that once you have done that things become clearer except on surcotes :D


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Baldrick » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:08 pm

Hi Charles 1st,
I have a few early medieval bits and bobs of armour that I might be persuaded to part with.
Please feel free to send me a p.m. and we could discuss further.
:twisted:


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Templar Knight » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:04 pm

I would say you want a kit like mine, give and take a few things depeding on region your order is from. Main variations will be on the shield , the design for the heraldry is hot debate over piebalds or just a crusader cross. Would be interested in hearing more about this group, send me a PM if you have anymore info to give, like what area you guys are setting this group up at etc

Regards TK


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby gallois » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:38 pm

Using the word 'authentic' in connection to acquiring garb and armour for the crusades is bound to raise some eyebrows. First you should decide if you are going to represent your group as Crusaders or Templar Knights, they are not necessarily the same thing. Richard the Lionheart led the 3rd Crusade but was not a Templar, Hospitalier or Teutonic Knight. In fact after the seige of Acre very few of the Templar Knights were combatant. They were a monastic order who acted like bankers for holy land pilgrims so they didnt have to carry money on the dangerous highways.
Most of your time as a Templar Knight should be in plain garb as befitting a order of poverty and dont forget the tonsured hairdo!


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Brendan C » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:42 pm

gallois wrote:Using the word 'authentic' in connection to acquiring garb and armour for the crusades is bound to raise some eyebrows. First you should decide if you are going to represent your group as Crusaders or Templar Knights, they are not necessarily the same thing. Richard the Lionheart led the 3rd Crusade but was not a Templar, Hospitalier or Teutonic Knight. In fact after the seige of Acre very few of the Templar Knights were combatant. They were a monastic order who acted like bankers for holy land pilgrims so they didnt have to carry money on the dangerous highways.
Most of your time as a Templar Knight should be in plain garb as befitting a order of poverty and dont forget the tonsured hairdo!


And the beard!

Brendan C


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Mark Griffin » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:06 pm

Ahh yes, forgot about the beard Brendan, always the giveaway. I once challenged a 'templar' (at Cressing Temple of all places) why he was ignoring this rule and day job plus some kind of skin complaint was the answer. Didn't start to ask about the persil white cotton duvetabard.

So i'd like to take the cross and serve the order...but only on Tuesdays and saturdays and if its not too hot and if I'm not forced to eat crusts etc etc.

Ah well sure he's moved on.


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Brendan C » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:44 pm

Nigel wrote:To be honest the first palce you should start is the rule read that once you have done that things become clearer except on surcotes :D


Charles, as Nige (Conquest's God-Emperor) has said, the best source you can start is the Rule:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rule-Templars-K ... 238&sr=1-1

This is a translation of the Rule that was being used by the Templars in the late 1160's (same period as the Winchester Bible) and the Hierarchal Statutes lists everything you would need - be warned ; it's a LOT!

Another thing to bear in mind if you are running a group specifically recreating Knights Templar is that the Templars never took part in any military campaign in this country (or probably any where else outside of Palastine) - they probably never drew weapons outside of practice sessions within their priory walls, so unless you are doing events on Templar grouns, or on a route to a port to set sail for Palastine, military stuff would be pretty thin on the ground :(

Regarding the shield design discussion, the current trend of thought appears to be that the pie-bald design comes in post 1200. At least at present, might be a new one in a couple of months

Brendan C


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Mark Griffin » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:56 pm

so unless you are doing events on Templar grounds, or on a route to a port to set sail for Palastine, military stuff would be pretty thin on the ground


arm wrestling maybe. Or the sergeants darts evening down the local cold often turn nasty, esp when the turcopoles were playing too.


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Re: WTB the following (used C12th 3rd crusade templar items)

Postby Charles1st » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:29 am

Well we were going to head for the whole traveling templars on a journey to a port, only a couple of us are actually gonna be knights while the rest being, hired squires, sergeant and other members of the order who went to the holy land.

That way being as it took a while to get around, we can set up a camp and do some sword displays ect. as there were constant threats on the road. Thanks to everyone for the amount of advice given its proving most helpful!

Ordered that templar rules book




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