Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

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Fox
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Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Fox » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:39 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:I agree entirely. My expectation is that an arming doublet offers much less protection, which implies that it is even less like a jack, but that's just in my head.

The comparison between the doublet de fence and the welsh jack is most telling that they are made from the same number of layers of fabrics (of similar types, I think), but cost different amounts to make up, in much the same way that doublets are cheaper to make than coats (though the coat usually has more spent on the fabric).

This is why I feel that they are very separate items, possibly more to the Medieval mind, than to ours.

But you've just given a case for a doublet of fence being different from a jack in the medieval mind; not for an arming doublet and a jack.
My understand is that a doublet of fence is, for want of a better definition, is a civillian rather than military protective garment; a clear medieval distinction makes sense to me also.

I'd like to see some evidence that suggests an arming doublet is distinct and different in the medieval mind to a jack, i.e. they are different types of garment with fundemental differences.

Colin Middleton wrote:Do we have any kind of evidence for heavily padded garments (like jacks) being worn under plate harness?

Again, I think you need to show there is a distinction between heavily and lightly padded garments, and not a sliding scale.



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Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Zachos » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:21 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:
Zachos wrote:The way I would wear the combination mentioned, is a doublet, followed by a maille skirt and "crop top", with a brigandine over the top. The doublet wouldn't be that thick, simply two or three layers. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say it was the only way they did it, but rather that is one way it might have been done.

I agree with your asertion about the layers Zachos, but I'm wondering if you've any evidence of the mail "crop top"? I know of gussets (voiders as we call them now), separate sleeves and full shirts, but I've never heard of that 'half shirt' kind of idea. It does seem a natural 'missing link' and I'd love to know more if you have provenance for it.


Here you go: Italian sketch from about 1450:
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Maille sleeves.jpg


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Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby wulfenganck » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:20 pm

@Zachos: are you sure about the date 1450? I remember having read around 1460 when the picture was dicussed in the arms and armour forum a while ago...but might have been a mistake...U'd like to have a certain date for clarification, so if you have more on this...?



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Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Zachos » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:20 pm

wulfenganck wrote:@Zachos: are you sure about the date 1450? I remember having read around 1460 when the picture was dicussed in the arms and armour forum a while ago...but might have been a mistake...U'd like to have a certain date for clarification, so if you have more on this...?


I believe it was drawn by Pisanello, who died about 1455, but I could be wrong.


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Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:54 am

I agree with Zachos on this one as its in Art of the Renaissance by (b**ger its by someone) but if he sketched it during the mid 1450's then you could equally argue that it is close to 1460 as 1450.
He may have found drawing a shade difficult after 1454/5/6 (depending upon the biographer) given his death though.


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Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:15 pm

Fox wrote:But you've just given a case for a doublet of fence being different from a jack in the medieval mind; not for an arming doublet and a jack.
My understand is that a doublet of fence is, for want of a better definition, is a civillian rather than military protective garment; a clear medieval distinction makes sense to me also.

I'd like to see some evidence that suggests an arming doublet is distinct and different in the medieval mind to a jack, i.e. they are different types of garment with fundemental differences.

Okay, I'll admit that I've rather arogantly assumed that because two things are called doublets, then they might have something in common. I further built on that to suppose that as a doublet de'fence is built of a similar number of layers of similar fabric as a jack, that it would be closer in nature to a jack, than an arming doublet would be (though admitedly, we don't seem to know much about the construction of arming doublets). It's a very vague structure, full of assumptions, I agree.

As I understand it, you're asserting that a Doublet De'Fence is significantly different from an Arming Doublet (did they use that term?), but that an Arming Doublet is NOT significantly different from a Jack. Is that correct?

Is that position not every bit as flimsy as the one that I put forward?

Fox wrote:Again, I think you need to show there is a distinction between heavily and lightly padded garments, and not a sliding scale.

I'll take that as a No then, as you're using symantics to avoid answering the question.


Taking a more constructive stance:
In How A Man Shall Be Armed..., it goes to some lengths to describe details of how your doublet should be made, what fabrics to use and where to put the points. At no point does it say that the garment is padded. This may mean that it was too obvious to mention, or it could simply mean that the garment is not padded at all.

To me, this gives us a number of worth while questions:
Do we have any evidence that arming doublets are padded at all?
Do we have evidence of what the differences between a doublet de'fence and an arming doublet are?
Do we have evidence of what the differences between a doublet and a doublet de'fence and arming doublet are?
Do we have evidence of what the differences between a jack and an arming doublet are?
Do we have evidence of a jack being worn under full (or near full) harness?

If we can answer a few of these, we might be in a better position to resolve this debate.

Many thanks


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Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:18 pm

Zachos wrote:Here you go: Italian sketch from about 1450:

That's a hell of an image isn't it! Thanks for that Zachos, I've never seen an example like that before.

I would never have guessed at taking out that middle section on the torso. I'm amazed!

Once again, thank you very much.


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Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Fox » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:17 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:As I understand it, you're asserting that a Doublet De'Fence is significantly different from an Arming Doublet (did they use that term?), but that an Arming Doublet is NOT significantly different from a Jack. Is that correct?

No, I am not asserting that. Let me clarify.

The modern usage of "doublet of defence" usually refers to a re-enforced "civillian" garment, either padded or plated.
I moderately certain there is period text that would give the impression of that phrase used in that context.
I have it in my head there is an example of this type of garment in the Walice Collection, but I can't find a reference to it off hand.

Is that phrase used exclusively to mean that in period, and arming doublet something different?
I can't say, and possibly not, since I've seen the phrase "jacks of defence" used.
I have suspicions it may even have been used to refer to brigs, but it's so hard to say for sure.

BTB: the phrase arming doublet is used; for instance, Paston Letters, in one of the many shopping lists: "I wyll make an armyng doblett off it".

Colin Middleton wrote:In How A Man Shall Be Armed..., it goes to some lengths to describe details of how your doublet should be made, what fabrics to use and where to put the points. At no point does it say that the garment is padded. This may mean that it was too obvious to mention, or it could simply mean that the garment is not padded at all.

But very valuable document though this is, it's one document from one date; not a great sample space.
It might tell us how things were sometimes done, at one point in history, assuming we understand it correctly.
But it does not tell us what other variations there were, even common ones, and certainly not how it changes through time, even a short period of time. [and that also ignores geography].

Colin Middleton wrote:To me, this gives us a number of worth while questions....

These questions make modern disitnctions between different types of garments based on the names.
But I would assert that it is not easy to tell whether those distinctions of names exist [indeed there are clues that they don't], and therefore making that differentiation from written sources is dangerous; which seemed to be what you were saying.

Furthermore, what I am asserting is that we know there is an evolution in armour, and an similar evolution in the styles of garments worn under them. Evolution suggests there are no absolutes.
We also know there is some variation for things like geographical location and personal preference.



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Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby House of De Clifford » Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:09 am

regarding "arming doublets", isnt there evidence of types actually containing a corset that pulls the wearer in so that his armour sits correctly just above the hips? If so, these would be considered a totaly different garment to the "jack" as one would be made for individual clients and the other could be mass produced. It would be reasonable to assume then that a distinction at the time would certainly be made between the two types of garment, (and their intended use). I am assuming a cetain amount of snobbery and cost would also play a part in how items are catagorised and therefore named differently.


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Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Fox » Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:49 am

That sounds like good logic, but I'm not sure that the medieval use of other words always fits that pattern.
It may be true in this case, but certainly my knowledge is too limited to tell.

I'm certain there were some distinctly different garments, the evidence we have shows that; I'm not sure it's clear what the variation is.



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Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby Falamin Stinkbeard » Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:56 pm

Can I ask a question?

This thread has been about mail sleeves, but is there examples of sleeveless mail??? i.e. just body mail?

Excuse my ignorance


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Re: Of Brigandines and mail sleeves......WOTR-ish

Postby House of De Clifford » Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:58 pm

Fox wrote:That sounds like good logic, but I'm not sure that the medieval use of other words always fits that pattern.
It may be true in this case, but certainly my knowledge is too limited to tell.

I'm certain there were some distinctly different garments, the evidence we have shows that; I'm not sure it's clear what the variation is.


As you say fox, the terms used by us now to generalise a "type" of garment may be well off the mark. Indeed, the term doublet may have been used as a generic term, encompassing many different styles. As today, the term trousers refers to legwear but jeans do not fit into the same catagory as they have a sub culture all of their own owing to popularity. It is always difficult to provide specific evidence that is decisive and factual when dealing with historical research, especially when all we are really doing is creating opinions and attempting to back them up with primary or secondaty evidence. :crazy:
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