Bosworth Battlefield finds

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Honourius III
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Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby Honourius III » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:05 pm

To All, greetings

While at Bosworth I went along with several others, Pete the Pong, several gunners and some quite normal people to the Museum at the invite of Richard Mackinder to be sown the finds and to talk about the new site of the battle.
One of the finds was particularly interesting it is a badge (?) about a centimeter across, of a bird with its head to our right and it appears to be holding something long in its beak. On the rear was probably a loop now broken off. See Picture. The experts are baffled as to what it represents. Therefore Richard has asked me to disseminate the pictures for your interest and comments. Has anyone any suggestions?
The next is the Bore. Well there is no doubt that it is a bore. This was found somewhere near the windmill where folk law has it that Richard III and John Howard went to meet their maker.
The other two are the Pilkington pendant and an unknown pendant. Any comments? There is not enough room for the fourth so Ill put it on another posting.
Attachments
Pilkington Pendant Front.jpeg
Boar Master1.jpg
Badge 1.jpg



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John Waller
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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby John Waller » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:23 pm

I'm guessing it's a dove of peace with an olive branch in it's beak. I'm also guessing that the bore is in fact a boar. :wink:


Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

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Lindsay
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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby Lindsay » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:26 pm

For some reason, my first guess is that it's a pelican! Can't justify it but there you go!

:thumbup:


Historians did it in the past.

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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby Grymm » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:40 pm

Any traces of paint on the piggy, one of the Oxfords badges was a blue boar....yeah yeah I know the white bores want it to be uncle Dickies badge but there are options.


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Honourius III
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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby Honourius III » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:31 am

No, no paint just a silver bore. They seem to have settled for Richards bore. Its the bird that has got them, and whats it holding in its beak.



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sheepmilker
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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby sheepmilker » Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:38 pm

Maybe a pelican in her piety? Someone like Brother Ranulph would know better than me though...



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Brother Ranulf
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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby Brother Ranulf » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:50 pm

OO-er, well outside my comfort zone (Bosworth - 1485? :shifty: ). It doesn't look very pelicany to me, either in or out of its piety; they usually have long beaks and are shown stabbing themselves to nourish their offspring (highly symbolic of Christ nurturing His followers) rather than clutching anything in the beak. Here's a French example from 1450 to show what I mean:

pelican1450.jpg
pelican1450.jpg (44.96 KiB) Viewed 2428 times


It is fairly indistinct, but the Bosworth find could simply be an eagle with both wings extended ("displayed" in heraldic terms) - the feathery texture on the left extends up from the leg and out into the wing; if you squint a bit the same could apply on the right, with the "knuckle" of the wing next to the short beak. The left wing has two layers of feathers, giving it a stepped outline, and you could say the same applies on the right.

I'd say that whoever produced the boar had rather more artistic flair than the buffoon who worked on the birdy.


Brother Ranulf

"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby guthrie » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:10 pm

The top item is almost certainly a harness pendant, complete with enamel decoration, very common in the 14th and 15th centuries, there is an entire book about them printed by the museum of London. I don't see a pelican in its piety on it though, perhaps it would benefit from some more conservation or an e-ray or two?



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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby KedlestonCraig » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:44 pm

The "bird" looks more like a basilisk* to me - that looks like a tail with a lizard's head on it, bottom right. (I have one on my (Curzon) Guydon**)
The head and left wing are incomplete, but that could be a poorly rendered tongue sticking out of its bill


*No, Harry Potheads, the heraldic basilisk is a not a big snake.
** yes it does look like the Kellogg's Cornflake packet


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Brother Ranulf
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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby Brother Ranulf » Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:54 am

I looked at the bird again and drew this sketch before breakfast today, leaving out variations in colour and the texture and separating out the thickness of the metal - emphasising the outline detail. It's certainly possible to come up with alternatives but this is how I see it:

Scan20001.JPG


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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby guthrie » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:25 pm

Brother Ranulf wrote:OO-er, well outside my comfort zone (Bosworth - 1485? :shifty: ). It doesn't look very pelicany to me, either in or out of its piety; they usually have long beaks and are shown stabbing themselves to nourish their offspring (highly symbolic of Christ nurturing His followers) rather than clutching anything in the beak. Here's a French example from 1450 to show what I mean:

At least one bestiary I've read has it that the male pelican kills the young in a frenzy for some reason, and the female ones ressurects them by sprinkling her own blood onto them, so you can guess what symbolism is involved here... There is also the alchemical/ medical vessel called the pelican, used since the 14th century, but the earliest I recall it being called a pelican is the later 15th century.



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Honourius III
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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby Honourius III » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:00 pm

Thanks for that drawing Brother Ranulf. It does help to focus on the object better. I think I can now see where you are coming from, that does look like a lizard with all its ribs (not feathers as I first thought) with its head down the bottom turned to our right and a foot on our left.



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John Waller
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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby John Waller » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:15 pm

The pelican feeding her young with her blood is termed vulning. It's on the family arms of my ECW regiment's historical Colonel, Sir Thomas Tyldesley. The beak of this bird is nowhere near her breast so I think that theory can be discounted.


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Ghost
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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby Ghost » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:48 pm

an eagle with swaddled child laying across eagle from bottom centre to top right with ?


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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby Nigel » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:42 pm

Ghost wrote:an eagle with swaddled child laying across eagle from bottom centre to top right with ?


wouldnt be an eagle trying to undo swaddling would it ?


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby Tod » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:31 pm

How do you know its the right way up?



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Brother Ranulf
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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby Brother Ranulf » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:14 am

Looking for any similar finds from the fifteenth century I came up with this silver example from an old antiquarian collection and dating to the early 1400s, valued today at £350:

eagle early15th.jpg
eagle early15th.jpg (13.71 KiB) Viewed 2291 times


Despite its slightly lizard-like appearance it is firmly described as an eagle. The head is obviously facing forward rather than back, but the pose seems very similar and the voids between the wings, legs and tail are all similar; the feather texture is equally clumsy on this silver example. The wing to our left has the same stepped outline showing two layers of feathers. The wings are attached to the foot and to the tail exactly as I showed in my suggested sketch of the Bosworth example.

Also found this extract from "Heraldic Badges in England and Wales by Michael Powell Siddons, Wales Herald Extraordinary:

"An eagle, the emblem of St John the Evangelist, was sometimes used as a rebus for ‘John’, as in the case of John Cantlow,
Prior of Bath 1489–99, whose rebus was an eagle holding in its beak a scroll with the words ‘Prior Cantlow’. The Paschal Lamb, an attribute of St John the Baptist, was used in a similar way as a rebus for ‘John’, and John Wheathamstead, Abbot of St Albans 1421–60, used both these as rebuses."
,


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Honourius III
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Re: Bosworth Battlefield finds

Postby Honourius III » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:47 pm

Thank you for that brilliant piece of research. By the way I should have mentioned the Boar is in fact not only solid silver – it has definite signs that it was also gilded.




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