the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

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Nigel
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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Nigel »

Fox wrote:
narvek wrote:I claim my twopence!
Sure. You can collect her from Nigel.

at the moment given she is the snot monster from hell and unreasonably blaming me you can have her :D
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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Laffin Jon Terris »

guthrie wrote:I dunno, I thought Marcus, me and Jenn were broadly agreed on it all. You'll have to be a bit more definite, Fox.

(Mind you I'm getting a little fed up of seeing people at WotR events with their doublets hanging down over hose in their shirtsleeves and their hose magically staying up)
If your doublet or petticote are properly fitted to your body they will stay up (and hold up your hose) without the use of a belt (or magic). I do this myself on occasion and I'm sure I have seen at least one image of this being done (possibly someone farming?)

The other thing that people forget about when aiming at portraying a "siege camp" is that the enemy would not actually arrange to come and fight you at 11.30 and 3.30 (with perhaps a small skirmish over lunch). You'd be ready to fight at a moments notice or pay the consequences!

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by narvek »

Nigel wrote:
Fox wrote:
narvek wrote:I claim my twopence!
Sure. You can collect her from Nigel.

at the moment given she is the snot monster from hell and unreasonably blaming me you can have her :D
I did say MY twopence, but...
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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Fox »

guthrie wrote:Mind you I'm getting a little fed up of seeing people at WotR events with their doublets hanging down over hose in their shirtsleeves and their hose magically staying up
Thank you for proving my point, Guthrie.

Your implication is that they are somehow "cheating".

I know someone who does this. He does not "cheat" and use draw stringed hose. He just has properly fitted garments.
And I, too, have seen it illustration.

But goodness forbide that any actual history should get in the way of the crusade against self suspended hose.

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Fox »

narvek wrote:
Fox wrote:
narvek wrote:I claim my twopence!
Sure. You can collect her from Nigel.
I did say MY twopence, but...
You do know that wording doesn't make it any better, right?

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by narvek »

Fox wrote:You do know that wording doesn't make it any better, right?
Me do am being sorry, me only a stupid forgainer :angel:
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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Fox »

narvek wrote:
Fox wrote:You do know that wording doesn't make it any better, right?
Me do am being sorry, me only a stupid forgainer :angel:
Yeah, that's right. You pretend you don't speak good english.
That dog will not hunt. :thumbdown:

Just put down the shovel and step away from the hole. :D

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by guthrie »

Fox wrote:
guthrie wrote:Mind you I'm getting a little fed up of seeing people at WotR events with their doublets hanging down over hose in their shirtsleeves and their hose magically staying up
Thank you for proving my point, Guthrie.

Your implication is that they are somehow "cheating".

I know someone who does this. He does not "cheat" and use draw stringed hose. He just has properly fitted garments.
And I, too, have seen it illustration.

But goodness forbide that any actual history should get in the way of the crusade against self suspended hose.
Yahh book sucks to you and your own little crusade against people who you disagree with.

Now, having worked out two ways for such hose to stay up (Support from the belt under the doublet and being thin enough that with the lower ties still done up the hose are essentially held up by the doublet acting as a belt) I wish to change my complaint to those people whose hose stay up without a doublet or with the doublet not at least tied around their waste in whatever way is appropriate.

Now, have you got anything else to complain about?

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by guthrie »

Now if I do my WotR hose up tight and don't move much I can just about get them to stay up without a doublet at all, has anyone got any pictures of anyone with such hose not attached to a doublet or dare I say it, a pourepoint?

The point being that as far as I am aware all the evidence points to hose which are down on the hips for this period, and thus even when tied tight at the front are still below or at the widest part of the hips, so any hose which go higher than that and thus can stay up when tied tight are not correct. That was what I was trying to get at in a rather poor fashion.

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by narvek »

Fox wrote:Yeah, that's right. You pretend you don't speak good english.
That dog will not hunt. :thumbdown:

Just put down the shovel and step away from the hole. :D
Well, the pun was intended from the start, so I might bury myself as well, right? :wink:
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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Fox »

guthrie wrote:Yahh book sucks to you and your own little crusade against people who you disagree with.
But that's rather the point.
I don't want dogma, I want theology.

Unfortunately, dogma is for the masses; because theology, in the real world, just becomes sophistry. :(

And that's as far as I can exhaust that poor, little metaphor.
guthrie wrote:dare I say it, a pourepoint?
Since the words we use don't really accurately represent the words that were used, I'm sure you dare; as long as we all know what you mean by it, which we do.

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Colin Middleton »

The hosen are almost up to the natural waist line by the end of the WotR, so you're generalising too much. For the first half of the WotR, though you are correct.
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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by guthrie »

Ahh, well if you're going to take it that way, it is all rather tricky isn't it? (And theology used to be called the queen of the sciences, hahahaha)
We end up with dogma because information transfer is limited and people don't all want to be costume experts and shouldn't be, but then when you step further away from detailed knowledge you get more and more general. I know where you are coming from and sympathise. Ultimately I settle for hopefully being able to tell you what is and isn't authentic about what I have on and what I have in my demonstrations (I keep hoping for an authenti-nazi to try and pick on me over them, but no luck so far).

The other question is why should theology become sophistry? Is it because you are trying to lay down rules and people keep trying to find their way around them? Wait, that sounds familiar.

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Fox »

That's what I'm sayin'.

I didn't say I had an answer; I just said I was depressed by it.

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by guthrie »

So can we cheer you up in any way, or is this "The end of the season is in sight" fatigue? Or possibly a symptomof your general approach to life?

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Fox »

guthrie wrote:So can we cheer you up in any way, or is this "The end of the season is in sight" fatigue? Or possibly a symptomof your general approach to life?
Fatigue?
Yes, possibly. But more because the end of the season isn't in sight yet; still loads to do.

But, to misquote Mr. Wilde, there's only one thing worse than re-enacting, and that's missing out on re-enacting.

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Langley »

To add to the worm can collection... We are talking about fine detail of clothing when there are much more glaring inaccuracies - in behaviour. People wandering around in high status kit without the necessary accessories - a bevy of flunkies fawning around. Worse, wandering around in high status kit and being ignored by the vast majority of lower status folks. Let's have a campign for Real Toffs and make obeisance when they pass. Several events this year only a few of us went to our knees when the king himself passed. Maybe we can start following the lords and ladies around pointing out they are obviously in need of a retinue?

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by guthrie »

Langley wrote:To add to the worm can collection... We are talking about fine detail of clothing when there are much more glaring inaccuracies - in behaviour. People wandering around in high status kit without the necessary accessories - a bevy of flunkies fawning around. Worse, wandering around in high status kit and being ignored by the vast majority of lower status folks. Let's have a campign for Real Toffs and make obeisance when they pass. Several events this year only a few of us went to our knees when the king himself passed. Maybe we can start following the lords and ladies around pointing out they are obviously in need of a retinue?
Perhaps we could have a small riot with people saying someone isn't a noble and they get done for wearing the wrong clothes?

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Jim Smith »

Langley wrote:To add to the worm can collection... We are talking about fine detail of clothing when there are much more glaring inaccuracies - in behaviour. People wandering around in high status kit without the necessary accessories - a bevy of flunkies fawning around. Worse, wandering around in high status kit and being ignored by the vast majority of lower status folks. Let's have a campign for Real Toffs and make obeisance when they pass. Several events this year only a few of us went to our knees when the king himself passed. Maybe we can start following the lords and ladies around pointing out they are obviously in need of a retinue?

You'd need an agreed event protocol that all attendees signed up to for this to work. If some random re-enactor I didn't personally know demanded deference at an event I doubt my reply would be a polite one - let alone anatomically possible.
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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Langley »

I was thinking of it the other way round Jim - us plebs taking on the onus of deferring if we want to. You could probably not get more than a few yards without having to doff yer cap to some toff. It would make the point about there being soooo many of them around dressed far above what you are likely to find in "real" life.

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by guthrie »

REgarding the issues with "I'm on a siege camp and will wear what I like" versus "Going into town to do some shopping so I should put a gown on", at larger events I think it would be helpful if the specifically martial display is somehoe at least a little separate from the traders and/ or living history displays, with people accepting that there are differences. Whether you put up a wee arch or gateway or have separation by distance doesn't matter too much, as long as people are told there is a difference.

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by narvek »

And you can have some guards guard the market place and hassle the others...
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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by IDEEDEE »

Langley wrote:To add to the worm can collection... We are talking about fine detail of clothing when there are much more glaring inaccuracies - in behaviour. People wandering around in high status kit without the necessary accessories - a bevy of flunkies fawning around. Worse, wandering around in high status kit and being ignored by the vast majority of lower status folks. Let's have a campign for Real Toffs and make obeisance when they pass. Several events this year only a few of us went to our knees when the king himself passed. Maybe we can start following the lords and ladies around pointing out they are obviously in need of a retinue?
Langley wrote:I was thinking of it the other way round Jim - us plebs taking on the onus of deferring if we want to. You could probably not get more than a few yards without having to doff yer cap to some toff. It would make the point about there being soooo many of them around dressed far above what you are likely to find in "real" life.
Guess I feel the same.. To me, no matter how "good" our kit (I'll steer clear of the actual topic - coward that I am - though I'm probably tending towards the Fox feeling :) ) is, so long as we as "actors" (which, in effect, we are when on public view) ignore the appropriate social setting in which we are playing then it seems to me that we are no more truly "accurate" in any real sense vis a vis giving a taste of past life than is a museum dummy - and perhaps sometimes less so than a member of the public in fancy dress who does actually "play the part" (steps back & ducks). :) Maybe that's my acting background talking, but personally, if the rules of the event required that I deferred appropriately to my betters when "on stage" then I wouldn't have any problem with that at all (any more than I would than if cast in a play). Mind you, I know my place... I can see all sorts of Wife of Bath style haggling over precedent among my betters - but then I guess that's more accurate than what most of us do now anyway. Such a rule should not, of course, extend to the beer tent ("Oi, I was 'ere first yer f-in' Grace"). :D

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

I think that Langley's comment is fair to a certain extent.
Again though it has something to do with the way many WOTR groups are set up as being "Households" of one magnate or another.
In the group I belong to only my family and Gothic Jim's dress in a "posh" manner and we are seldom at the same event and drssed in higher status kit at the same time (the recent event at Bosworth being an ideal example of this).
However at bigger events like Bosworth, Tewkesbury, etc you have a lot of groups attending and in most case at least one family from each group will be dressed at a higher status even if that group has only a dozen or so members at most. This creates an impression that there are lots of minor gentry wandering around.
I don't know how you would ever get an agreement that only such and such a group dressed at such and such a rank/level of society at such and such an event though I have no doubt it could be done.
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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Colin Middleton »

I did a quick analysis of numbers in the Howard Household and it broke down that approximately 25% were gentry, 25% were grooms and 50% were yeomen. I would expect every group to contain at least 1 gentlman at that rate.
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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Benedict »

Marcus said "However at bigger events like Bosworth, Tewkesbury, etc you have a lot of groups attending and in most case at least one family from each group will be dressed at a higher status even if that group has only a dozen or so members at most. This creates an impression that there are lots of minor gentry wandering around."

Is this necessarily a problem? I don't claim any particular expertise in the fourteenth century, but wasn't warfare one of the main aristocratic pursuits (followed by preparation for war, including hunting, skill at arms, making money to afford military kit and practising telling people what to d0). A military gathering would inevitably have a higher-than-typical proportion of high-status individuals because they were the ones who could afford and were expected to fight. A major muster (eg Tewkesbury, Bosworth) would presumably gather a lot of magnates with their retinues, plus their gentry associates and their retinues. In camp it's a whole lot of posh nobs, on the field it's an army :-)

Perhaps the key is to be clear about what you're portraying. If it's a military encampment, it won't be socially representative. If it's civilian life, it would expect far more plebs and not many nobs. The suggestion of separating the two (if they're both present at the same event) might therefore be the way forward.


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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Friesian »

Colin Middleton wrote:I did a quick analysis of numbers in the Howard Household and it broke down that approximately 25% were gentry, 25% were grooms and 50% were yeomen. I would expect every group to contain at least 1 gentlman at that rate.
Would that be 1 gentleman , 1 groom & 2 yeomen ? :wink: :D

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Langley »

So maybe we will see a few more of us act to acknowledge the more obviously nobby? I intend to keep doing it for one so if I bow to you at an event please forgive me!

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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

I don't have a problem with it., though sometimes it does look like an army of officers.
Ordinary people wouldn't just be showing difference to higher born gentry folk either if it is a question of manners.
Farm labourers should be showing difference to the local reeve and stewerds, even thought hose men are "peasents" too. Apprentices and journeymen should be towards masterguildsmen and craftsmen. There should be difference shown between livered guildsmen and unlivered guilds. Courtesy should be shown towards clergy and religous.
Indeed one of the big stumbling blocks that we have is any understanding of how heirarchical and conservative (and formal) life was then.
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Re: the 3 layers rule of mens clothing

Post by IDEEDEE »

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:I don't have a problem with it., though sometimes it does look like an army of officers.
Ordinary people wouldn't just be showing difference to higher born gentry folk either if it is a question of manners.
Farm labourers should be showing difference to the local reeve and stewerds, even thought hose men are "peasents" too. Apprentices and journeymen should be towards masterguildsmen and craftsmen. There should be difference shown between livered guildsmen and unlivered guilds. Courtesy should be shown towards clergy and religous.
Indeed one of the big stumbling blocks that we have is any understanding of how heirarchical and conservative (and formal) life was then.
Agreed. You only have to read contemporary accounts (& contemporary novels) of more recent periods to realise that in past societies in these isles there were pecking orders within pecking orders and conventions of behaviour essential for anyone intending to survive/be accepted by such societies that we can only begin to grasp at and which go so waaaay beyond the Cleese/Barker/Corbett Upper/Middle/Working class sketch that to get a real grip on the detail takes a lot of research. Eg. even if pretty lowly, does one have degrees of submissive gestures which vary, depending on just how much "higher" than oneself the person one is addressing/bowing to is - as I understand is still the case in some societies (a caricature, Japanese bowing frenzy comes to mind). I expect so (speculative example: I am verbally, but not physically submissive to the chap one rung above me, nod respectively to his superior, nod & doff my cap the the next rung up, uncover & bow a little to the next level up, ditto and keep my head low/stance submissive to the next up etc. etc. etc. right up to the full kow-tow) which complicates matters no end...
Langley wrote:So maybe we will see a few more of us act to acknowledge the more obviously nobby? I intend to keep doing it for one so if I bow to you at an event please forgive me!
GROVELFIGHT!!!!! Bet I can abase myself lower than you.. :D

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