1450 - gentry wearing surcoats ?

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kedleston
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1450 - gentry wearing surcoats ?

Postby kedleston » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:02 am

I have been looking at a local tomb - the tomb was carved in 1496 and is of a knight and his wife. The knight's amour and outfit seem to be appropriate however the women's clothing does not seem to match. The lady is meant to have died in 1450. She is wearing a very short surcoat over a tight fitting dress and her headwear is a hood - five sided cap with with a very small brim and tails hanging downwards. It is a similar hood to pictures of Elizabeth of York. What was the latest dates for surcoats and what would have been the appropriate headdress. Can anyone perhaps guide me to some useful links ?



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Re: 1450 - gentry wearing surcoats ?

Postby KedlestonCraig » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:53 pm

The lady in question :)
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Tod
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Re: 1450 - gentry wearing surcoats ?

Postby Tod » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:09 pm

One thought and perhaps I'm miles off. That church was damaged by Cromwells soldiers was any repair work done after the mid 17th century? I've seen the tombs and it doesn't look like it but maybe thats why the clothing doesn't "fit"?
By the way if you ever find the reason or why the little faces are there (you'll know what I mean) I'd be very interested.



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Alice the Huswyf
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Re: 1450 - gentry wearing surcoats ?

Postby Alice the Huswyf » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:32 pm

late c15th ceremonial surcoat.jpg
Sideless surcoats continued as ceremonial wear for the highly born until the late C15th, especially in coronation type clothing. One of those deliberate anachronisms of fashion that difference the 'them' from the 'us'.

However they are very much the exception rather than the rule and worn as a marker of the very high status in ultra formal mode.

Image above: From the Hours of the Duchess de Bourgogne, c 1450, IF the fashion of the time of her death was recalled but detail confused with fashion of the time of the monument's manufacture you would end up with the result you've seen: often brasses were installed many years after a death and showed the late-lamented in the fashion of the day rather than the fashion of demise.

And below that, Giovanni Boccaccio: Emilia in the rosegarden (Teseida) (detail). Date Anjou, ca. 1460 - she being a spartan princess, by the way
.
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Colin Middleton
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Re: 1450 - gentry wearing surcoats ?

Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:58 pm

I don't know when the 'gates of hell' surcoat went out, but as Alice said above, they remained popular on tomb effigies for decades after people stopped wearing them in normal attire.

The hat could be a slightly 'angled' version of the cap described in the MTA.

Another posibility is that her effigy may have been made with her husbands and hence be contemporary with his death, not hers. As stated above (again), that would result in her wearing late 15th C (or early 16th C) ultra-formal wear for her effigy.


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Re: 1450 - gentry wearing surcoats ?

Postby Tuppence » Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:56 pm

What Alice said - they continued in high attire well into the late fifteenth century - off hand at least till 1485.

How old was the woman when she died?

You always have to factor in the habit of people conituing to wear the styles of their youth into their old age.


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KedlestonCraig
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Re: 1450 - gentry wearing surcoats ?

Postby KedlestonCraig » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:47 pm

Tod wrote:One thought and perhaps I'm miles off. That church was damaged by Cromwells soldiers was any repair work done after the mid 17th century? I've seen the tombs and it doesn't look like it but maybe thats why the clothing doesn't "fit"?
By the way if you ever find the reason or why the little faces are there (you'll know what I mean) I'd be very interested.

there was repair work in the Victorian period but it looks like it was round the base rather than the effigies themselves.

I'm not sure what you mean about the faces - it's quite a busy church carving-wise :) the two C13 heads in the ground are the oddest things there I must admit...


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Re: 1450 - gentry wearing surcoats ?

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:08 pm

For sure the little faces belong to the little people now.


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Re: 1450 - gentry wearing surcoats ?

Postby KedlestonCraig » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:40 am

KedlestonCraig wrote:
Tod wrote:One thought and perhaps I'm miles off. That church was damaged by Cromwells soldiers was any repair work done after the mid 17th century? I've seen the tombs and it doesn't look like it but maybe thats why the clothing doesn't "fit"?
By the way if you ever find the reason or why the little faces are there (you'll know what I mean) I'd be very interested.

there was repair work in the Victorian period but it looks like it was round the base rather than the effigies themselves.
I'm not sure what you mean about the faces - it's quite a busy church carving-wise :) the two C13 heads in the ground are the oddest things there I must admit...


On the floor of the chancel in Keddleston church, on removing two circular pieces of wood, about a foot below the surface, appear the head of a knight in mail armour, and that of his lady in veil and wimple; sculptured in pretty high relief; part of their hands also appear joined in the attitude of praying: each of these sculptures is inclosed within a quatre-foil. In the year 1810, the stones above being removed, it appeared that these quatrefoils, and the heads within them, were cut on a large gravestone, four feet wide and ten inches thick, without any inscription.
'Antiquities: Ecclesiastical', Magna Britannia: volume 5: Derbyshire (1817)


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