Falchion scabbards

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Tod
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Falchion scabbards

Postby Tod » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:21 pm

The blade is wider at the top than the bottom, and the blade has slight curve.
Wide or curved scabbard?



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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby John Waller » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:26 pm

What make and model? I made a scabbard for my armourclass falchion - not very 'thenty - plywood core covered in pig skin and a Two Js chape. It has a very slight curve.
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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Tod » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:26 pm

Make and model? Although I have one I mean in general. I think wide rather than curved as they are/were easier to make. If I give them liners they'll no doubt get broken at the first event.



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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Tallphil84 » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:21 pm

Wood and leather scabards don't always break I have one I made for Vike that is (touch wood) still doing fine after about 3 years. As for falchion scabards I would think curved with a semi open back, but thats just conjecture


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:31 pm

I'd go the other way and guess a wide scabard, fastened all the way.

You'll have to have a look at some old picture and see if you can spot one in a scabbard.


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby John Waller » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:49 pm

Beauchamp Pageant - crossbowman with girt big curved falchion.

link to a pic based on the Pageant http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... N%26um%3D1


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:58 pm

I haven't got my copy handy at the moment. What's the scabard like?


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby John Waller » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:46 pm

see my first post above.


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Tod » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:21 pm

But thats wider at the bottom than the top.



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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby John Waller » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:29 pm

Tod wrote:But thats wider at the bottom than the top.


True. But on the plus side, it would never fall out.


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:59 pm

John Waller wrote:see my first post above.


Sorry John. They're obviously working me too hard here! :wasntme:

Presumably the way the straps appear to lie, the neck can't 'open out' in any way, so we need to consider if there are other issues at play here. It appears the the sword is quite strongly curved, but can we be sure that it is any wider at the tip than at the grip? It could just be that the strange shape of the scabbard is to make it easier to draw out?


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Tod » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:20 pm

It could be made like that to compensate for the shape, the throat being the width of the tip and the wide part to make up for the curve. Or he couldn't draw (as in sketch).



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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby John Waller » Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:13 pm

Tod,
Check out this thread. Some fantastic scabbards including pics of a falchion scabbard under construction
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=14020


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Tod » Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:49 pm

A bit fantasy in places but interesting, thanks John.



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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby The_Maille_Tailor » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:58 pm

May I suggest glueing thin slivers of leather at the throat of the scabbard?

I made a similar scabbard a few years back for a langseaxe which had the widest point just behind where the false edge joined the back straight.

The mouth had to be wider to accomodate this and I found that sticking one or two slivers of leather at the mouth helped it stay in place.
I found that using 1/8" pine timber was a good start as it allowed me to plane down the timber to make the fit more snug, and used a router to round off the edges before covering it in leather.

Hope that helps?

I've got an Armourclass skinny Conyers here, and will probably make a scabbard for that after all the other jobs! lol


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Tallphil84 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:24 pm

Thought I had better add My owne question on to this. I have a Tim Noyes Messer Falchion due soon and will need to make a scabbard.
Q1. is a wooden core authenty for 15th Century? or does it need to be all leather?
Q2. Has a consensus been reached on the curved vs wide scabbard debate?


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Tod » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:51 am

I think you mean like wedges. But I doubt that would have been used originally. With no offence meant I really don't want to use glue.

It a good question about wood liners or not. I thought it was the latter.

gwyddal wrote:May I suggest glueing thin slivers of leather at the throat of the scabbard?

I made a similar scabbard a few years back for a langseaxe which had the widest point just behind where the false edge joined the back straight.

The mouth had to be wider to accomodate this and I found that sticking one or two slivers of leather at the mouth helped it stay in place.
I found that using 1/8" pine timber was a good start as it allowed me to plane down the timber to make the fit more snug, and used a router to round off the edges before covering it in leather.

Hope that helps?

I've got an Armourclass skinny Conyers here, and will probably make a scabbard for that after all the other jobs! lol



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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:40 pm

AFAIK, scabbards (for swords) ALWAYS had a wooden core (which was lined at least upto the 13th C and possibly afterwards), while sheaths (for knives) were all leather and may or may not have been lined (more likely to be lined with leather as we get later :roll: ).

HOWEVER, what qualifies as a sword and what qualifies for a knife is a much more complex question...

My feeling is that a Falchion is a sword (i.e. only used in battle, symbloic of a knight, etc.) so had a scabbard with a wooden core. But I would love to be proved wrong...


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Tod » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:31 pm

Not all 17/18th century scabbards had wood cores.



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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby The_Maille_Tailor » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:53 pm

I can't remember if it was PVA or another glue that I used on the leather slivers, but it does the job.

I remember reading somewhere that some scabbards were lined with lambswool or had a piece of it at the scabbard mouth to oile the sword naturally with lanolin.
Not 100% sure on this as I can't rermember the source, but it seems like a pretty reasonable solution?


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Tod » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:32 pm

I think thats right. But at the moment I'm interested in the correct shape.



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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Phil the Grips » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:55 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:HOWEVER, what qualifies as a sword and what qualifies for a knife is a much more complex question...

My feeling is that a Falchion is a sword (i.e. only used in battle, symbloic of a knight, etc.)


Sheath has no core, traditionally associated with knives, but not exclusively so. A scabbard has a core, commonly associated with swords (and that's before you get to metal scabbards of the C19th which are neither sheath nor scabbard by this definition).

Swords have counterweighted blades, whereas knives, though possibly balanced, do not. A flachion is a "sword" as it has a counterweight (ie pommel), though is by no means exclusively "knightly" or purely "military", whereas a messer is a "knife" as it has no counterweight, though may have a metal buttcap with a vestigial beak in some circumstances (again confused in the C19th when sabres and scimitars develop which have no pommels but are "swords")

Clear as mud, and mainly modern convention anyway :)


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby The_Maille_Tailor » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:23 pm

Hi Tod,
have you tried looking at sources like the Majkiowski (sp?) bible?
I use it a lot to trace the prevalence, or evidence of items and kit in the mid C13th.

From the little I remember of C14-15th falchion scabbards, they seem to be portrayed as almost exactly the same shape as a scimitar if that helps?
I'll have a dig around the library at home, and see if anything surfaces, if so I'll scan it and put it up on here.

What style and period was your falchion again by the way?


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Tod » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:42 pm

Mid 15th century. Would be a good target.



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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby narvek » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:16 pm

gwyddal wrote:Hi Tod,
have you tried looking at sources like the Majkiowski (sp?) bible?
I use it a lot to trace the prevalence, or evidence of items and kit in the mid C13th.


maciejowski bible AKA Morgan bible if that's better.
It's a great piece but keep in mind that most of the more peculiar weapons are purely artistic licence (probably) as to show that it's happening not in the europe;)


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Friesian » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:12 am

Colin Middleton wrote:AFAIK, scabbards (for swords) ALWAYS had a wooden core (which was lined at least upto the 13th C and possibly afterwards), while sheaths (for knives) were all leather and may or may not have been lined (more likely to be lined with leather as we get later :roll: ).

HOWEVER, what qualifies as a sword and what qualifies for a knife is a much more complex question...

My feeling is that a Falchion is a sword (i.e. only used in battle, symbloic of a knight, etc.) so had a scabbard with a wooden core. But I would love to be proved wrong...



Colin , are you sure about scabbards having a wooden core ? I thought that at least one of the few surviving was leather ..................From memory one of Oakshott's books ???



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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:52 pm

Tod wrote:Not all 17/18th century scabbards had wood cores.


Well, if you're going to go all Sci-Fi on me! |(

Friesian, no I'm not. I've never heard of an all leather scabbard (certainly wasn't one in Oakshot's Sword in the Age of Chivalry), but I can't rule out them existing.

Phil, thanks for the extra details. I've long struggled with the difference between a sword and a knife, given that either seem able to have a 3' blade! I know that the knightly and military issues are much more vague than I put them across. It bothers me slightly that everyone runs round with a sword at their hip all the time in re-enactment, but there were legal permissions granted to the gentry to wear swords, which implies that most people didn't wear them in 'civilised areas'.

I'm actually trying to draw together some notes for my group on what medieval scabbards and sheaths should be like, so if anyone can provide any further information, I'd appreciate it.

Many thanks


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:19 pm

I would argue that "ye medieval military camp" (which is the most common guise under which a re-enactment appears) would not fall into the standard norm of "civilised" though Colin.
In which case legal societal rules regarding who might be carrying a sword would be cast out the window. It's against the law to carry a rifle but soldiers on campaign do it all the time, why should it be strange for a medieval soldier to carry a sword on campaign.
I have read through the mid 15th century statutes of Bristol and they say nothing about who should or should not be carrying a sword, they do authorise the watch to remove them from those coming in from the country and forbid them from being brought in off ships (especially those from Wales and Ireland).
Although authentic I don't like wooden scabbards, I saw someone impale their leg on one back when i did ECW when they took a tumble and managed to snap it in half.
Ambulance ruined the ambience utterly so it did.


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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Tod » Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:24 am

As rule I don't make wood liened scabbards and refer people to Medicus Matt who makes wonderful stuff. I make mine for the re-enactment batlefield and some groups have banned wood liners for the reason Marcus states. Plus when I did make one I died on it and it broke.
There are hundreds of pictures of soldiers with swords, so I don't see a problem.



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Re: Falchion scabbards

Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:48 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:I would argue that "ye medieval military camp" (which is the most common guise under which a re-enactment appears) would not fall into the standard norm of "civilised" though Colin.


I agree that traveling around the country or going to fight in battles is not a 'civilised' area, but things get a bit more grey when you sit down to dinner with the household (household 'law' will tend to exclude swords from hall, who wants a murder while you're trying to slurp your soup?). Some re-enactors are practically glued to their swords!

It's just a pet peeve of mine, that we give the public the idea that everyone walked round with a sword at their hip, when it almost certainly wasn't that case. Just one of a million bad habits in re-enactment.

I'll shut up now, as this isn't the place to air my grumps. Marcus, thank you for slapping me down! :silent:


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