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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:44 pm
by Vicky
guthrie wrote:So nobody has seen any evidence for boiling the wool for hose then?


What is normally sold as 'boiled wool' is a mechanically knitted fabric rather than woven.

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:01 am
by guthrie
Vicky wrote:
guthrie wrote:So nobody has seen any evidence for boiling the wool for hose then?


What is normally sold as 'boiled wool' is a mechanically knitted fabric rather than woven.

I was under the impression that some people such as the aforementioned historic enterprises did actually boil wash woven wool. Do you have any evidence one way or the other?

So modern dyes can be done pretty cold, so in that case were they inadvertantly boiling, or at least hot washing the wool thus adding some shrinkage and thence stretchiness?

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:11 am
by Vicky
guthrie wrote:I was under the impression that some people such as the aforementioned historic enterprises did actually boil wash woven wool. Do you have any evidence one way or the other?



I wasn't specifically talking about HE. But from their website entry on the hose:

"These hose are made from Merino wool jersey which has been processed [fulled], producing a thick, elastic fabric. The fulling process obscures the weave, so the fabric appears the same as fulled woven wool, even on close inspection. Boiled wool is less authentic than bias cut wool but has more stretch so the fit is as smooth and tight as seen in images from the period. This fabric is more durable than woven and stands up better to activities such as sword practice, combat and horse riding."

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:29 am
by guthrie
Vicky wrote:"These hose are made from Merino wool jersey which has been processed [fulled], producing a thick, elastic fabric. The fulling process obscures the weave, so the fabric appears the same as fulled woven wool, even on close inspection. Boiled wool is less authentic than bias cut wool but has more stretch so the fit is as smooth and tight as seen in images from the period. This fabric is more durable than woven and stands up better to activities such as sword practice, combat and horse riding."

Ahh, thats fine then. I've met a couple of people extolling the virtues of HE hose, but they didn't know it was made that way, which makes it something to avoid.

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:25 am
by Vicky
guthrie wrote:Ahh, thats fine then. I've met a couple of people extolling the virtues of HE hose, but they didn't know it was made that way, which makes it something to avoid.


Depends on your outlook. I know of several respected groups and individuals who advocate using jersey wool hose because they 'look right', rather than woven wool hose with an inappropriate weave which don't. I suppose it's deciding which is the bigger compromise!

Mind you, I don't wear hose, so not a decision I ever have to make! :wink:

My lot use naturally dyed Whaleys wool hose ('Voltaire' IIRC, a twill anyway) which works extremely well.

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:59 pm
by guthrie
Ha, yes, compromises everywhere. Why can't we just persuade a few hundred people to sit spinning by hand all day?

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:05 pm
by Colin Middleton
James Bretlington wrote:Which is what most of us do anyway, I know I do, and I've heard it mentioned many times before around here....


Speak for yourself! I know too many young re-enactors who out of idleness either leave them undone all the time, or leave them tight all the time. :-x

Of course, the time pressures on many shows do contribute to that effect. :wasntme:

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:02 pm
by EnglishArcher
Can someone help restore my faith in fitted hose by posting a picture of a re-enactor in well-fitted hose?

I hear so many people talk about how fantastic their groups hose are, skin-tight, wrinkle-free, indestructible, etc., but I've almost never seen a decently fitted pair at an event. As it's such a bête noire with me I do check, but so far the elusive beasts have evaded me.

I do so want to believe it's possible.

Oh, and not the HE hose (great though they are, for what they are)

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:31 pm
by Langley
Been looking through our photos. Lots of pairs of what used to be well fitting hose but we all seem to have gone a bit baggy over time. Had not really noticed until English Archer asked. Looks like next make and mend session has a hose theme...

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:39 pm
by lucy the tudor
[quote="EnglishArcher"]Can someone help restore my faith in fitted hose by posting a picture of a re-enactor in well-fitted hose?

Jack Greene has immaculately tight fitted hose, but being a good girl, I never have a camera on me at events, so i don't have a picture of his rear neatly displayed- does anyone else?
Mind, as my Nan would have said, there's not a pickin' on him!

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:21 am
by lidimy
What a chore, looking through all my photos for nice hose. Please don't ask again...

not a clue who these people are :D but they're not English re-enactments!

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:13 am
by EnglishArcher
Men with spindly legs have it easy - when your leg has no shape fitting hose is simple

(It's just jealousy :envy: )

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:31 pm
by Colin Middleton
I don't know who it was, or have pictures, but I got talking to a guy at Bosworth 08 with fantastically well fitted hosen, including full feet. He gave me several tips, which I'm still trying to incorporate into a new hosen patern.

He used to be an armourer, but retired to a job where he could earn money.

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:50 pm
by wulfenganck
lidimy wrote:What a chore, looking through all my photos for nice hose. Please don't ask again...

not a clue who these people are :D but they're not English re-enactments!

These fotos must have been taken at the Museum in Berne, Switzerland, where the Company of St. George - with the help from various other groups - settled a camp with artisans and military excercises during the "Charles the rash" exhibition in August 2008.
Actually, both pictures contain members from the Company as well as from different groups - I'm proud to say partly from my groups Nürnberger Aufgebot and Projekt Mainz, sorry for bragging, :wasntme:

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:47 pm
by lidimy
wulfenganck wrote:
lidimy wrote:What a chore, looking through all my photos for nice hose. Please don't ask again...

not a clue who these people are :D but they're not English re-enactments!

These fotos must have been taken at the Museum in Berne, Switzerland, where the Company of St. George - with the help from various other groups - settled a camp with artisans and military excercises during the "Charles the rash" exhibition in August 2008.
Actually, both pictures contain members from the Company as well as from different groups - I'm proud to say partly from my groups Nürnberger Aufgebot and Projekt Mainz, sorry for bragging, :wasntme:


I knew someone would recognise them - yes they are from Berne :D

I think that if I was priveleged enough to attend such an event, I'd spend a little time bragging too...

English Archer, they may have an easy time fitting hose, but tis the musclely legs which get the looks, right?

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:57 pm
by Friesian
Vicky wrote:
guthrie wrote:Ahh, thats fine then. I've met a couple of people extolling the virtues of HE hose, but they didn't know it was made that way, which makes it something to avoid.


Depends on your outlook. I know of several respected groups and individuals who advocate using jersey wool hose because they 'look right', rather than woven wool hose with an inappropriate weave which don't. I suppose it's deciding which is the bigger compromise!

Mind you, I don't wear hose, so not a decision I ever have to make! :wink:

My lot use naturally dyed Whaleys wool hose ('Voltaire' IIRC, a twill anyway) which works extremely well.[/quote ]

I guess I fall into that catagory - I use HE hose as the lesser of 2 evils . Although perfectly fitted woven hose can be made , they dont seem to last long as perfectly fitted hose ! Also , with the main activity I do at events they rip very quickly at the crotch (& the less repair work Miranda has to do in that area the safer I feel :o ) .

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:55 pm
by Grymm
From what I remember CSG use knitted for 'the look' too. But I'd have to check with Mr 23b who has had more contact ( Image )with members ( Image ) of CSG than I.


Ah sorry wrong forum for the Matron symbols..........

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:42 pm
by EnglishArcher
English Archer, they may have an easy time fitting hose, but tis the musclely legs which get the looks, right?


I'll avoid answering that, just in case Mrs English Archer is reading this. :angel:

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:14 pm
by Zachos
As a skinny legged gentleman I can tell you it isn't wonderfully easy for us either. The problem is that they stretch, whatever you do to stop them. Although, if you give them a good wash every now and again it does bring them in a bit.

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:51 pm
by lidimy
Ha ha ha! So now I don't feel bad at all, Zac! D: :silent:

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:02 am
by wulfenganck
Grymm wrote:From what I remember CSG use knitted for 'the look' too. But I'd have to check with Mr 23b who has had more contact ( Image )with members ( Image ) of CSG than I.


Ah sorry wrong forum for the Matron symbols..........
Some members or guests may did and still do, but it's a "must-not" in the actual clothing guide and there's is none in the pictures posted above.

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:08 am
by zauberdachs
Hey all,

Now I would hate to...

cat_and_pigeons_small.jpg
cat_and_pigeons_small.jpg (50.83 KiB) Viewed 3436 times


But while looking at this image:

Leopold der Milde section of an altarpiece, c. 1489-1492.JPG


I can't help but think that those points can really only be coming through from his braies...

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:28 am
by Zachos
It looks to me that the artist is showing unreadiness by the chap not even having put his doublet on yet, and the points are just hanging free.

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:46 am
by IDEEDEE
Yeah, I agree with Zachos, he's just operating without a doublet (looks like one of those "tighten-the-bl**dy-tent-up-first-thing-in-the-morning" moments. He's not fully dressed, so points are hanging loose. Been there. Done that.

However, saying that it's obviously possible to be quite active without attaching the points (if the hose are right). Not everyone seemed to have been "pointed" at all times - even when fully dressed. Some of the dancers in the (albeit later) Breugel pictures are clearly jigging about without attaching the points to their other kit.

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:19 pm
by Colin Middleton
By the end of the 15th C, hosen would stay up like that without a doublet, so that would be my guess.

What's the date on that picture?

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:33 pm
by Sir Thomas Hylton
Now, The chap on the far left is clearly pulling up split hose, but looking at the one on the far right doing some emergency pegging down, its not clear whether the hose are split or joined but staring at the picture, it almost looks as if at least some of the points are coming through his shirt into his hose. This seems to be very odd. But does seem to make an odd sort of sense. Though would hardly be convenient come ablutions time.


Must say changing the subject slightly, I quite like the way the feet of the hoes of the chap pegging down are done, with no heal & toe sections, something that appeals to me.

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:33 pm
by Karen Larsdatter
See the "Joined Hose for Men" section at http://larsdatter.com/hose.htm -- for example, BNF Français 22500, fol. 248 shows two young men wrestling, and his doublet seems to end above his bottom (though he's bent over, so it's hard to tell from the angle whether that's what you'd call his waist) -- and the points tie directly to the lower end of the doublet.

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm
by gregory23b
Guthrie, not all HE hose are boiled knitted wool, they have a range of products to suit the various needs of their clientele.

Their kit is incredibly hard wearing and were I to start a group up from scratch in a hurry I would most likely get the basics from them, amongst other traders as well. They are very honest about their product range and have no secrets.

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:23 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
He's just got stirrups Paul, I have them on more than one pair of my own hose. They do a wonderful job of keeping everything looking tight as a tiger (and make it easier for me to put on riding boots.)
I also have a pair of hose that are self supporting but that has more to do with lardiness then authenticity. :$

Re: Where do you attach your points?

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:06 am
by Jenn
Depends on the date too the later the you go in the 15th cent the higher the waist gets therefore the more able the hose are to support themselves
http://www.tudortailor.com/bookshoptks.htm
The King's Servant by Caroline Johnson covers from Bosworth to 1509 and gives some pretty good info on this