Where do you attach your points?

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guthrie
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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby guthrie » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:19 pm

One of our lot has early 15th century single leg hose attached to the bottom of along doublet.
As for shirts, they have to have spare volume because they don't fasten, they just get pulled on and off, so they will always end up wrinkled.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby IDEEDEE » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:12 pm

Complicated isn't it?

If pushed to the sticking post,I would say that most images I've now seen show an unpointed, short or long "coat" which hides the points completely (even when loose, short and with skirts light enough to "float") or a doublet with no marked point holes; these garments being worn over "something" else to which the hidden points (assuming they are there) are attached.
This combo is often thin enough to allow the coat itself to look really figure-hugging, but I don't have a huge problem with this - just look at period photos of really well cut Victorian/Edwardian gents' dinner dress. In most cases however, looking at the pics where the coat is really tight fitting on the arms, I would say that this "something" is probably sleeveless (from personal experience of wearing two, tight, lined, sleeved garments at the same time) but am prepared to be contradicted on this.

The more I look, the more variety I see (not surprising in one way, given the time-range/geographical spread I've been looking at - 1470-early 1500s) but the variation doesn't seem entirely cronologically based - there are some odd continuities; e.g. Flemish & German short and short-skirted/unskirted doublets with point holes only partially (or in places totally) unpointed going from the 1480s right up to the 1560s (right up to Breugel & his magic" hose; with untied, dangly points, staying up on dancing peasants!!). Also the baggy shirts, mentioned above, spilling out where there points clearly aren't being used.

Despite all my looking (I really need more paid work :) ), the only "reenactment style", skirted doublets with pointholes at the top of/above the skirts seen have been in Breugel. Would love to se an English/Flemish earlier one.

Alas, after (or perhaps because of) all this looking at period pics, the point where hose stop being "Talhoffer-style" hipsters and rise up to either "low" or "high" waist level still seems more unclear to me than ever (been taking it on trust from secondary sources before now). I guess that's because this seems to vary from place to place/artist to artist as much as cronogically.

With regards this side of the channel (i.e. in an English WOR context), I've still not seen enough contemporary, local pics definitive enough to make me willing to nail my colours to the mast. I guess I'll stick to my single legs for early stuff and sleeveless pourpoint (there, I've said it) & my low-waisted hose for late. However, I may play around with lowering the points' line on my doublet/height of the hose if I get time. What I will have to do is to make sure I'm wearing a coat at all times.... :)

(P.s: Sorry about the misattributed quote earlier English Acher/Colin: Don't know what happened there) :oops:



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:37 pm

IDEEDEE wrote:sleeveless pourpoint (there, I've said it) :


Quick, grab your bows, we've got a French interloper! :D :devil:

IDEEDEE wrote:(P.s: Sorry about the misattributed quote earlier English Acher/Colin: Don't know what happened there) :oops:

Not a problem. It's probably because you're not working in your natural langue (i.e. French) :twisted:

:wink:


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:40 pm

Zauberdachs, that picture's really interesting. Do you have a date/country and/or reference for it?

We've got nice examples of close fitting full hosen worn with a short, pleated jacket (disgustingly short, look you can see their codpieces! :o )
You've also got all the masons in their working wear, with their back hosen points undone so that they can bend easily.

Very, very nice example.

Thank you.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:05 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:Zauberdachs, that picture's really interesting. Do you have a date/country and/or reference for it?

We've got nice examples of close fitting full hosen worn with a short, pleated jacket (disgustingly short, look you can see their codpieces! :o )
You've also got all the masons in their working wear, with their back hosen points undone so that they can bend easily.

Very, very nice example.

Thank you.


I'm guessing Les Grandes Chroniques de France (BNF Fr. 2609, fol. 60v), 1471

(which also happens to be the name of the JPEG! :D)


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby IDEEDEE » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:17 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:Quick, grab your bows, we've got a French interloper! :D :devil:


French? Moi? Alors!! :D

Actually, slip in a space & a capital "N" in me surname (& nickname) & it turns into De Nyer and (horrors!!) according to Wiki Nyer is a commune in the Pyrénées-Orientales department in southern France!!! Nooooooooooo!!!!!!!!! :o

Maybe, that's why I keep being accused of being too civilised (and I thought we was just Saxon yokels from the dene..). :)


(Apologies to any genuine French folks listening :) )



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby zauberdachs » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:55 pm

To be honest I think that on tight fitting items where there are no point holes the most likely option is that they are pointing to eyelets inside the garment, i.e. there is a strip in a flap inside the garment that the points go through.

I have zero evidence for this however...


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby guthrie » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:06 am

zauberdachs wrote:To be honest I think that on tight fitting items where there are no point holes the most likely option is that they are pointing to eyelets inside the garment, i.e. there is a strip in a flap inside the garment that the points go through.

I have zero evidence for this however...

I understand there's enough evidence for it 50 years later in the early 16th century...
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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby lucy the tudor » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:24 am

guthrie wrote:We need more bog bodies, and time machines with cameras.

Can only agree here, daughter has said the main thing she would do if she could time travel would be to go about hiding bits of spinning and weaving kit of the time ( 'specially lucets) in places where they could wait for us to "find" them when she got back to the present. Do you want me to get her to put some men's upper wear in there too?


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:22 pm

zauberdachs wrote:To be honest I think that on tight fitting items where there are no point holes the most likely option is that they are pointing to eyelets inside the garment, i.e. there is a strip in a flap inside the garment that the points go through.

I have zero evidence for this however...

Just to be difficult, I'll disagree. I think it more likley that they're jackets worn over a sleeveless doublet. We do know that such things existed, though they weren't as common as they are in re-enactment.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:40 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:
zauberdachs wrote:To be honest I think that on tight fitting items where there are no point holes the most likely option is that they are pointing to eyelets inside the garment, i.e. there is a strip in a flap inside the garment that the points go through.

I have zero evidence for this however...

Just to be difficult, I'll disagree. I think it more likley that they're jackets worn over a sleeveless doublet. We do know that such things existed, though they weren't as common as they are in re-enactment.


Ah... the woolly waistcoat beloved of medieval re-enactors. Especially when worn with really baggy, self-supporting hose with a genital-inspection flap - sorry, 'codpiece' - big enough to climb through. Just like you see in ALL the pictures. :twisted:


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby James Bretlington » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:54 pm

Baggy Hose - this leads me to a question...

We know that the pictures and art we do have all leans towards the idea that hose were well fitting, tight and stretched well.

What happened in times of want and famine, or if you were ill, and in the end lost weight. I can imagine a well off merchant or a lord getting a new set of hose made, but what about your poorer types? Did they all know to sew that well that they could take in their hose and maintain the clean, tight lines?

Depending on station, should we all have perfect hose?



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby lidimy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:04 pm

zauberdachs wrote:To be honest I think that on tight fitting items where there are no point holes the most likely option is that they are pointing to eyelets inside the garment, i.e. there is a strip in a flap inside the garment that the points go through.

I have zero evidence for this however...



Not sure how useful this is:

Image

from the second quarter 15thC - he seems to be removing a close fitting sleeved item from on top of another sleeved fitted item with single legged hose still staying up fine... sorry if this is not useful! (as you still can't see the points!)


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:04 pm

James Bretlington wrote:Baggy Hose - this leads me to a question...

We know that the pictures and art we do have all leans towards the idea that hose were well fitting, tight and stretched well.

What happened in times of want and famine, or if you were ill, and in the end lost weight. I can imagine a well off merchant or a lord getting a new set of hose made, but what about your poorer types? Did they all know to sew that well that they could take in their hose and maintain the clean, tight lines?

Depending on station, should we all have perfect hose?


Simple answer: Yes.

Apart from the absolute poorest of the poor just about everyone is shown with well-fitted hose.

Being able to sew, darn and repair would have been a key skill for everyone. With material possessions being at a premium, keeping what you own in good repair would have been a priority. After all, it may have to last you many years.

The Hollywood idea of peasants in ragged, unfinished, thread-bare clothing is a myth. You would keep your clothing as neat and tidy as you could.

If nothing else, clothing showed your status; and no-one wants to be thought of as poorer or less fortunate than they actually are. The awareness of status also meant everyone dress as well as they could (when it was important).

As to losing weight: Most people had very little weight left to lose, in general. Although they weren't much shorter than us, they were much smaller-framed. Take a look at most extant clothing and it almost looks like it was made for a child. By today's standards I think they would be thin and wiry (but tough). It's unlikely that they would vary dramatically in size throughout their life - that much weight loss would probably mean death. If you lose that much weight you're probably more interested in just staying alive than whether your hose fit sleekly!

The problem for re-enactors is the availability of well fitted hose. There are very few skilled hosiers in the UK (I could probably count them on the fingers of one hand!) It is a real skill to fit hose so they are tight but you can still move fully. So re-enactors are forced to buy off-the-peg. Hosiers making for the mass market can't deal with every variation in size and shape so tend to 'build baggy' - so at least people can move. That still doesn't explain why codpieces are so big and wide - they're supposed to cup the genitals, not provide an inspection hatch for the pubes! Look at the Talhoffer prints to see how small and cupped the codpiece should be.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:22 pm

lidimy wrote:Not sure how useful this is:

Image

from the second quarter 15thC - he seems to be removing a close fitting sleeved item from on top of another sleeved fitted item with single legged hose still staying up fine... sorry if this is not useful! (as you still can't see the points!)


The art style, haircuts and clothing look much closer to the first quarter 15thC, possibly even late 14thC. The under-garment of the stripping man look remarkably like the 'pourpoint' of Charles du Blois; and that style of garment is seen in several other images around this period.

I'm speculating this is a very early form of doublet, when it was still a military garment, for use under armour.

If I recall, the Charles du Blois garment has points stitched inside it (to hold the hose up?) which may explain why none are visible in the image.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Zachos » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:09 pm

Or the fact that its a miniature painting. Most of these paintings being shown are of a size where if you are putting the points in as well then you're probably a bit weird. It would be like a modern artist painting the zip on everyone's trousers, on an image not much bigger than a large mobile phone.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Friesian » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:18 pm

zauberdachs wrote:To be honest I think that on tight fitting items where there are no point holes the most likely option is that they are pointing to eyelets inside the garment, i.e. there is a strip in a flap inside the garment that the points go through.

I have zero evidence for this however...


thats always been my opinion too , I have no evidence either ,but then again nor do the 'sleevless garment underneath' advocates . I can see no reason why both schools of thought could be right .............Or wrong !



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:32 pm

James Bretlington wrote:Baggy Hose - this leads me to a question...

We know that the pictures and art we do have all leans towards the idea that hose were well fitting, tight and stretched well.

What happened in times of want and famine, or if you were ill, and in the end lost weight. I can imagine a well off merchant or a lord getting a new set of hose made, but what about your poorer types? Did they all know to sew that well that they could take in their hose and maintain the clean, tight lines?

Depending on station, should we all have perfect hose?


There is some evidence to sugestthat hosen were often bought 'off the peg' and then 'tweeked' to fit well. Whether that was done at home or if the hosiers offered a 'fitting service' isn't so clear, but certainly the possiblity of taking them in to retain the fit is viable.

There are a number of pictures of beggars who's hosen don't fit. They tend to be baggy and sagging.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby James Bretlington » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:00 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:
There is some evidence to sugestthat hosen were often bought 'off the peg' and then 'tweeked' to fit well. Whether that was done at home or if the hosiers offered a 'fitting service' isn't so clear, but certainly the possiblity of taking them in to retain the fit is viable.

There are a number of pictures of beggars who's hosen don't fit. They tend to be baggy and sagging.


Which is what I've had to do myself, since I lost 50lbs... damn things are still baggier than I'd like...



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Langley » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:10 pm

I am told by the people who researched and assemble my hose that part of the probelm is that mediaeval wool was from breeds with a much longer staple (or length) than current breeeds, even merino, properly spun and woven, this gave rise to a very fine wool which was much more stretchy than we can make now. Lady L (and Jackie B before her) has spent much time in museums like the V&A and on the continent poring over the very few and small samples which survive and says some of it seems to be almost like lycra.If so, no wonder the sumptuary laws were concerned with too short doublets/coats. Hose would have been much more figure hugging than what we wear as reenactors.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Clarenceboy » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:10 pm

Just to add to Langley's point (get it!) I know a lady who used to be in the same group as me who did her degree (masters and later Phd) on fabric and did her dissertation or at least an essay on the twists per inch of wool by machine and by hand, I honestly cant recall which way round it is but one has about 12-14 and the other more like 16-18 and this difference has an effect on the elastic properties of the final cloth. So it could well be that however well you fit your new hose they will never look or move quite right because your not using the correct hand spun yarn from the correct breed of sheep. As with a lot of things, a near impossible goal but one worthe striving for all the same



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:35 pm

I can't beleive that I'm writing this, but does that mean that was actually SHOULD be buying hosen wool with a little lycra mixed in? :worried:


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Langley » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:56 pm

Colin - talk carefully to Bernie - you may well be doing that already. He has some fabrics I believe (I usually manage to slip away while Lady L dribbles over his stock) which have a small amount and you really can not tell by looking - not even Lady L who is always careful to ask. I belive my black footed hose when they reach the top of the priority list (along with my new Wythe Duck Splat Green coat, new hood with fur lining, rebuilding of the jack, a wedding dress, completion of kitchen fitting, repainting the bedroom) will be of this material - otherwise I will never get my feet into the things and have them look half right on the calf.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby IDEEDEE » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:45 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:I can't beleive that I'm writing this, but does that mean that was actually SHOULD be buying hosen wool with a little lycra mixed in? :worried:


Hah! You read my mind, you naughty boy..

Maybe I've been unlucky, but the only pairs of rigorously tested joined hose that both "look right" tightness-wise and haven't given problems (rips, seams going, ankle issues, losing shape etc.) are one pair which I believe were boiled wool (naughty?) and another pair reserved for fancy dress/pub, which I suspect are actually some kind of 100% wool knit.

Funnily enough, just this morning I passed two young ladies in the street who were wearing perfectly passably wool-looking leggings which fitted like a second skin (with a codpiece and the seams in the right places they would have been just like in the period pics). Bethought myself at the time "I wish my hose always fitted like that" (as opposed to thinking "Nice gams". Guess I must be getting old. :) ).



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby wulfenganck » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:38 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:I can't beleive that I'm writing this, but does that mean that was actually SHOULD be buying hosen wool with a little lycra mixed in? :worried:
Nnnooooooooo!!! Blasphemy!!!!
Seriously 'though, I think we should start to put more effort in a proper measurement and fit, until we call a hose finished;-)
I agree with EnglishArcher on this matter, there are just a few people capable of sewing a well-fiting hose.
That's why I made me a pair of single-legged hoses for the more 'sweatier' parts of reenactment, like fencing, combat-training, the whole military stuff. Luckily you'll find quite a lot of references for those single-leg hoses in the Holy Roma Empire until the 1460s and still frequent use as late as the mid 1470s. (Of course they should be made in the correct style: long, reaching up to the hip, covering the upper front AND back of the thigh, multi-pointed to a slightly longer doublet)

Apart from that: the fact that we have plenty of illustrations showing hard working people or people with "sporting activities" like in the fencing manuals with unlaced hoses, i.e. the points at the back unlaced, thus leaving the hose dropping at the buttocks, is a strong indication for me that they had exactly the same problems: fabrics not able to withstand the needs of tight-as-skin-fitting fashion.

A friend of mine once had a nice sheet of wool (definitelay 100% wool, with natural dyes) washed to hot. The outcome was a shrinking of about 10% AND a very flexible fabric with a touch of felt. That would have been a perfect fabric for a hose. The colour was awfully blurry and with lots of stains therefore she never tried it, but maybe this was that kind of mysteriously stretchy fabric we're looking for.....



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:03 pm

I ought to get more single hose, they seem to have been popular in Italy until way into the late 15th century.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby James Bretlington » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:32 pm

wulfenganck wrote:Apart from that: the fact that we have plenty of illustrations showing hard working people or people with "sporting activities" like in the fencing manuals with unlaced hoses, i.e. the points at the back unlaced, thus leaving the hose dropping at the buttocks, is a strong indication for me that they had exactly the same problems: fabrics not able to withstand the needs of tight-as-skin-fitting fashion.


Which is what most of us do anyway, I know I do, and I've heard it mentioned many times before around here....


wulfenganck wrote: A friend of mine once had a nice sheet of wool (definitelay 100% wool, with natural dyes) washed to hot. The outcome was a shrinking of about 10% AND a very flexible fabric with a touch of felt.


Which is what the HE hose actually is - boiled wool.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby guthrie » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:43 pm

So nobody has seen any evidence for boiling the wool for hose then?



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Grymm » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:23 pm

Chap in red & green hose just left of centre, only one I've seen where the hose are pointed to the 'waist' rather than the base of the doublet and it's Eyetalian.
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Not showing pointing but showing tight but ragged hose
Image

And there's a rather good Mantegna sketch of a prisoner and two guards showing pointing of seperates and joined and very raggedy but still tight hose but I'm buggered if I can find it online.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Grymm » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:30 pm

guthrie wrote:So nobody has seen any evidence for boiling the wool for hose then?


Don't think they had cold water dyes then, plus the fulling process does need a wee bit o heat.


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