Where do you attach your points?

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Colin Middleton
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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:45 pm

Likewise.

Are you certain that they're doublets and not jackets? There are a number of pictures of scandalously short jackets being worn, that could easily look like a doublet (not even covering the bum and all that), even though they're designed to be seen (which doublets, naturally, aren't).

What period are they?


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby James Bretlington » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:42 pm

I was going to make a point about coats (which should always have been worn) and doublets (which would have been covered by the coat), but Colin beat me to it :)



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:41 pm

James Bretlington wrote:I was going to make a point about coats (which should always have been worn) and doublets (which would have been covered by the coat), but Colin beat me to it :)


And I was being polite, and ignoring that elephant in the room! :)
Last edited by EnglishArcher on Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby James Bretlington » Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:23 pm

Polite? No, I reckon living in Miami is curing me of that slowly.

I'm thankful for the discussion, it's made me do something to improve my new soft kit.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby IDEEDEE » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:15 pm

EnglishArcher wrote:Are you certain that they're doublets and not jackets? There are a number of pictures of scandalously short jackets being worn, that could easily look like a doublet (not even covering the bum and all that), even though they're designed to be seen (which doublets, naturally, aren't).


Ahhh..... Now here we get the "when is a doublet not a doublet" bit (or the "just how bloody skinny were these guys?!!") side of things, which is where I fall down/my ignorance shows. I guess one can't be assuming a coat will be coat-like (i.e. it looks as if a guy has more than two layers on him).

OK. haven't worked out how to embed pics. See if attachments work (can only do three at a time apparently). Will post more (or pp) if desired.

Image 8: Skirted doublet att. to hose. Simple.
Image "guys": Bottom guy - skirtless doublet? Top guy - I assume coat (?)
Image "Neese": Is this a doublet? (It sure as hell aint a pourpoint). Of three other guys in this painting two have coats (?), another (shirtless) has self-supporting hose.

There is a least one Talhoffer pic which looks to me like with one of the guys has hose clearly attached to a skirtless "waistcoat", but the unless my eyes decieve me, the other guy has a doublt which shows no points at all Image

Also, seek out the wolfegg hausbuch online (1480s). Loads of split skirted "coats" on very skinny guys, hardly any signs of points/doublets beneath (could, of course, be artist's decision, not reality - but ain't that the way with everything not shown?).

Admittedly, most of my collected images are continental (where are all the English ones!!!????) and hover from around the mid 1400s to 1505-ish. Still not found a "reenactment style" English 1460-80s doublet with visible waist points though...
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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby James Bretlington » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:27 pm

Looking at the bottom image, he's wearing something yellow underneath the top layer, and he could be pointed to that.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:25 pm

EnglishArcher wrote:
Are you certain that they're doublets and not jackets? There are a number of pictures of scandalously short jackets being worn, that could easily look like a doublet (not even covering the bum and all that), even though they're designed to be seen (which doublets, naturally, aren't).


IDEEDEE:
Please don't post quotes claiming to be from me which aren't. That comment was made by Colin Middleton, not me.

(Even though I agree with it!)


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:44 pm

I've just looked through the Mark Rector translation of Talhoffer (Medieval Combat) and there are as many images with points as without. Interestingly, the points appear to be tied so they fall inside the hose/doublet - possibly to avoid them getting snagged? - and perhaps that's why they don't appear in every image?

As for the red/white garment(s?), I suspect that is a linen-bodied doublet with coloured collar and arms. This seems to occur a lot. If you don't have much material only make the parts that show out of expensive cloth, and keep the body (which should never be seen in normal circumstances) cheap and simple. In this case the doublet appears to have a deep-set (grande assiette?) sleeve, which makes sense for freedom of movement.

As for guys.jpg: The green garment in front looks very much like a doublet. The man behind is probably wearing a short tawny coat/jacket, and the black edging you can see at the collar and cuffs is possibly the doublet.

In the bottom image I would say the yellow garment is the doublet. A more interesting question is what is the tight-fitting over-garment (with rolled up sleeves, lined in black? Difficult to tell from the image)


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby guthrie » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:25 pm

EnglishArcher wrote:I've just looked through the Mark Rector translation of Talhoffer (Medieval Combat) and there are as many images with points as without. Interestingly, the points appear to be tied so they fall inside the hose/doublet - possibly to avoid them getting snagged? - and perhaps that's why they don't appear in every image?

As for the red/white garment(s?), I suspect that is a linen-bodied doublet with coloured collar and arms. This seems to occur a lot. If you don't have much material only make the parts that show out of expensive cloth, and keep the body (which should never be seen in normal circumstances) cheap and simple. In this case the doublet appears to have a deep-set (grande assiette?) sleeve, which makes sense for freedom of movement.

As for guys.jpg: The green garment in front looks very much like a doublet. The man behind is probably wearing a short tawny coat/jacket, and the black edging you can see at the collar and cuffs is possibly the doublet.

In the bottom image I would say the yellow garment is the doublet. A more interesting question is what is the tight-fitting over-garment (with rolled up sleeves, lined in black? Difficult to tell from the image)

Except that in the Talhoffer illustration, the man on the right has his left leg in two colours, the inner one being white. So I wonder if it is either random artistry or a less well known form of wearing someone's colours.

What is your evidence for linen bodied doublets with dyed/ woollen arms and collars anyway? (In the 2nd half of the 15rh century, and I assume by your name you mean England) I agree they used more expensive cloth on areas people could see but was under the impression that was more for linings and clothing where fabric was turned over and revealed.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:02 am

What is your evidence for linen bodied doublets with dyed/ woollen arms and collars anyway?


Beyond the visual images of light-body/coloured sleeves in several images - none. It's purely a theory.

To me it sits more comfortably as a theory than any other. I'm not comfortable with the idea of a sleeveless, waistcoat-like garment worn over the doublet to hold the hose up (can I say 'pourpoint'? Can I? Can I? Pleeease!)

I'm quite happy to be proven wrong though.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby guthrie » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:04 am

Have you seen many other examples of such oddities? In the Talhoffer one above I think its more some odd colour scheme, because of the way the leg is in two colours, rather than a doublet with different fabrics.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Zachos » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:07 am

The Tallhoffer images seem helpful but might not be. They are fighting men, and in at least one document I know of, it suggests you tie your points, and then cut off the excess. This puts lack of obvious points in a new light. Its also possible they are wearing arming doublets, which might have a skirt extension below the points like an earlier example of Italian source, which Toby Capwell wrote a whole article on.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:34 am

guthrie wrote:Have you seen many other examples of such oddities? In the Talhoffer one above I think its more some odd colour scheme, because of the way the leg is in two colours, rather than a doublet with different fabrics.


I suspect you're right in this case: it's a deliberate colour combination choice (I like the idea of livery). Certainly in the later,16thC, fechtbuecher you see some fantastically outrageous schemes (please, somebody copy some of these garments!). As to materials: who knows? It could be linen, could be silk, could be worsted, could be wool (cloth)

There is an image from 1448 showing a mason. His doublet appears to have different coloured sleeves and collar (sorry about the poor image). It's even possible the body of the doublet is leather. You can also see (just about) his hose are pointed to the bottom of his doublet, but are single-legged.

Image

Some later fechtbuch images:

Image

Image


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby zauberdachs » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:56 am

The below image might be of use, perhaps showing the same thing in a little more detail.

Fleur des histoires (BNF Fr. 296, fol. 146), second half of the 15th century
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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:23 am

I'll try and get a better image of the masons, because it definitely doesn't look like a tabbard, as above. You can clearly see the attachment of the arms and the (red) points attached to the hose. It's just difficult to see from the small, blurry image I had available.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Langley » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:06 pm

The garment may be something like the one in this picture of Lady L and myself in the Stibbert Museum in Florence. It is a coincidence that the Fencing Doublet is in the picture of the two of us as we were not allowed to take photos of the exhibits... It does date from 16th not 15th century but illustrates a sleeveless garment designed specifically as a defence for practice with sword. No sleeves or point holes - it went over the top of other garments.

I will see if Lady L can dig out any of her illustrations but they may involve me getting the scanner out as mostly hardcopy in the old WC Handbook (and the updates which continued to be added after WC splits). She has been at this game since before the interweb thingy...
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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:18 pm

guthrie wrote:What is your evidence for linen bodied doublets with dyed/ woollen arms and collars anyway? (In the 2nd half of the 15rh century, and I assume by your name you mean England) I agree they used more expensive cloth on areas people could see but was under the impression that was more for linings and clothing where fabric was turned over and revealed.


I don't know the evidence, but I do know that it's an idea that Sarah Thursfield puts across in her doublet course. She's also been experimenting with the larger arm-hole for later 15th C due to some things she's spotted in her research. Certainly there is a letter in the Pastons where they are buying special fabric for a collar, presumably because it will show above the collar of their coat.

Why do you presume that the body is linen and the arms not. Surely it's more likley to be made of the same kind of fabric all over.

guthrie wrote:Except that in the Talhoffer illustration, the man on the right has his left leg in two colours, the inner one being white. So I wonder if it is either random artistry or a less well known form of wearing someone's colours.


That leg actually looks to me like it has a white stripe down the front, not made in 2 'separate' colours (if you get my drift). There appears to be red either side of the while over the whole length.

As to the other pictures, I agree with EA's comments. Has anyone else noticed that the top picture (blue and yellow hosen) has the points painted on, but nothing to hold the doublet closed on the body?


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:16 pm

You've got to be careful with 16th century doublets as they have differences to 15thC ones; and those differences can't necessarily be backward-projected.

There are many extant 16thC doublets with a band for attaching points hidden beneath the peplum.

Also, by the 16thC men had worked out that raising the waistline of the hose to above the hips allowed them to stay up on their own without support!

There is very little, or no, evidence to support these features in 15thC doublets. They were probably part of the general refinement of tailoring that occurred throughout the 16thC, that (arguably) lead to 'modern' tailoring - that is, cutting to a pattern rather than fitting to the body.

Here is an image from a mid-16thC French fencing manual, clearly showing unpointed hose staying up on their own.
Image


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby James Bretlington » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:37 pm

The mason image is interesting because, even in its blurriness, it's showing arms pointed onto something, with shirt clearly showing underneath the arm. What country is the image from?



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby wulfenganck » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:15 pm

Interesting discussion!!
Now Talhoffer and the other fencing manuals maybe should be taken with some small grain of salt.
There is another famoos fencing manual from a concurring fencing master of Talhoffer, master Paulus Kal (fencing master for duke Ludwig from Bayern-Landshut), written around the 1460: http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/ausgaben/thumbnailseite.html?id=00001840&seite=1&image=bsb00001840_00001.jpg sadly only black&white scans, because the colouring is just awesome. From image 00110 onwards, you'll find some extraordinary dopublets and hoses: mi-parti, multi coloured, slots; differnentöly coloured necks and arms; even hoses buttoned, not pointed to the doublet.

I don't know if we have a more "flashy" fashion cpmpared to the average contemporary fashion. At that time - the mid 1450s - fencing became very popular amongst citizens, but then, fencing still seemed to be a slightly outcast type of profession and the masters seem to have been working in different jobs, Kal and Talhofer as being fencing masters for nobles over quote a peroiod of time seemed to be ratehr the excemption, not the rule.

The Tallhoffer images seem helpful but might not be. They are fighting men, and in at least one document I know of, it suggests you tie your points, and then cut off the excess. This puts lack of obvious points in a new light. Its also possible they are wearing arming doublets, which might have a skirt extension below the points like an earlier example of Italian source, which Toby Capwell wrote a whole article on.

This is mentioned in the "TRAYTESE OF THE POYNTES OF WORSHIP IN ARMES BY JOHAN HYLL, ARMORER SERGEANT IN THE KINGE’S ARMORY 1434" which is somewhere around here......
I somehow doubt the arming doublets, as there are no pointholes visible for attaching arms and leg-armour.

I'd be very careful to compare 15th hose and doublet and the flashy Paulus Hector Mair renaissance stuff from around the 1530s - 1540s. Somewhere around the 1490s the hoses got closer and closer to the waistline, whereas in the 1450s- 1470s (which seems to be the timeframe we where writing about, wasn't ist?) the hoses are strictly ending in the hipbone.
Totally different to wear, because the later you get, the higher the waistline gets and once you've reached the 16th century, you have the first hoses that don't need to be tied to the doublet to hold.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby wulfenganck » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:26 pm

IDEEDEE wrote:SNIP
Also, seek out the wolfegg hausbuch online (1480s). Loads of split skirted "coats" on very skinny guys, hardly any signs of points/doublets beneath (could, of course, be artist's decision, not reality - but ain't that the way with everything not shown?).

The Wolfegg housebook represents a very fashionable look in the generally southern german part of the HRE from around the late 1470s to the 1490s, where you have a very broad V-shaped front, showing large parts of the skirt. Just take a look at early Albrecht Dürer paintings (his self-portraot for example).
As we have been writing about fencing manuals, take a look at master Hans Leckuchner CGM582: http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00002184/images/index.html?id=00002184&fip=84.178.66.79&no=&seite=11 (just an example)



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby zauberdachs » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:22 pm

hmmmmm, lots of beautiful fencing manuals :)

Here's another image for everyone
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Les Grandes Chroniques de France (BNF Fr. 2609, fol. 60v), 1471.jpg


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby guthrie » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:43 pm

Colin Middleton wrote: I don't know the evidence, but I do know that it's an idea that Sarah Thursfield puts across in her doublet course. She's also been experimenting with the larger arm-hole for later 15th C due to some things she's spotted in her research. Certainly there is a letter in the Pastons where they are buying special fabric for a collar, presumably because it will show above the collar of their coat.

Why do you presume that the body is linen and the arms not. Surely it's more likley to be made of the same kind of fabric all over.

Sure, it may well be the same fabric all over, I'm still trying to find out what the fabric would most likely be, even after talking to Sarah Thursfield. Remember by the 16th century they were definitelymaking doublets all in linen, but why do we keep using wool for WotR?

Colin Middleton wrote:
That leg actually looks to me like it has a white stripe down the front, not made in 2 'separate' colours (if you get my drift). There appears to be red either side of the while over the whole length.

I don't see how you can see the other side of the leg from the picture given above. Do you have weird eyes?



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby James Bretlington » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:02 pm

guthrie wrote:
Colin Middleton wrote:
That leg actually looks to me like it has a white stripe down the front, not made in 2 'separate' colours (if you get my drift). There appears to be red either side of the while over the whole length.

I don't see how you can see the other side of the leg from the picture given above. Do you have weird eyes?


No, I see it as well, particularly at the top of the hose where it is pointed to the doublet. It looks like there is red on both sides of the white. It's not as easy to see further down the leg.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby guthrie » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:56 pm

I see a slightly darker colour, definitely not red, that may well be the shadow drawn by the artist. But not red. And my eyes are fine on colour perception. Note how the other combatant has legs which look like they are of the same colour but are also shaded.

Wulfenganck - personally, I was taking the later images from the 1520's as showing that they had multiple colours in use in one suit of clothing, not anything to do with the style or cut.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Richard Scott » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:46 am

EnglishArcher wrote:There is an image from 1448 showing a mason.


Would anyone care to voice an opinion on how the hosen of the mason centre/background of this picture are held up? What appears to me to be a shirt is hanging out almost all the way round.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby zauberdachs » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:24 am

Richard Scott wrote:
EnglishArcher wrote:There is an image from 1448 showing a mason.


Would anyone care to voice an opinion on how the hosen of the mason centre/background of this picture are held up? What appears to me to be a shirt is hanging out almost all the way round.


If it's anything like the last image I've posted, where the shirts are out almost all the way round, then I would suggest that just the front points are fastened.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Richard Scott » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:52 am

As an aside, I know that doublets should be closely tailored, but what about shirts? Again, from the pictures posted in this thread where the shirt is hanging out they mostly are depicted as being 'rumpled' suggesting a looser fit than the doublet.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:27 am

Richard Scott wrote:As an aside, I know that doublets should be closely tailored, but what about shirts? Again, from the pictures posted in this thread where the shirt is hanging out they mostly are depicted as being 'rumpled' suggesting a looser fit than the doublet.


Shirts are almost universally cut from simple rectangles/squares and are never fitted to the body.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:38 am

zauberdachs wrote:
Richard Scott wrote:
EnglishArcher wrote:There is an image from 1448 showing a mason.


Would anyone care to voice an opinion on how the hosen of the mason centre/background of this picture are held up? What appears to me to be a shirt is hanging out almost all the way round.


If it's anything like the last image I've posted, where the shirts are out almost all the way round, then I would suggest that just the front points are fastened.


I agree with this.

Another possibility is he's wearing single-leg hose tied to the bottom of a long doublet. If the back points of such a garment are left open (to assist movement) the shirt is free to fall out and hang loose.

The single-leg, multi-pointed hose and long doublet are never seen in the re-enactment community, even though it appears on several images in the early 15thC. I have worn such doublet/hose and find it to be far more practical than joined hose. I find it surprising that more re-enactors don't attempt this style.


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