Where do you attach your points?

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zauberdachs
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Where do you attach your points?

Postby zauberdachs » Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:11 pm

So, for the WOTR period where on your doublet do you attach your points?

It's another thing I've never really thought about but my doublet has the points attaching at the waist with a skirt falling below however all the period images I've seen have the points attaching at the base of the doublet as seen below.

Is there any evidence for waist attaching doublets or is it a re-enactorism?
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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby chrisanson » Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:34 pm

i have small holes in the tops ov me legs and yes it did hurt



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby guthrie » Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:56 pm

Thats right, most pictures show them at the bottom of the doublet if they show them at all. Your doublet, IIRC, was an off the shelf job. My botched yellow doublet, which you've hardly seen, has the holes at the bottom. As far as I am aware, attaching them at the waist is a re-enactorism.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby James Bretlington » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:05 pm

I was just about the ask the same question. Given the way my hose have stretched I need to get rid of the foot and stirrup them now, and then I'll be back to the right height for the attachment...



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:13 pm

Its either the elbow or the thigh bone-i can never remember the bloody words.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby guthrie » Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:32 pm

Talhoffer also has some very clear pictures.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby zauberdachs » Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:44 pm

Indeed. The point is that there is no lack of evidence for what I have described above. However the main type I see in re-enactment in general is the waist attaching type. I was wondering if there was some source I had missed or if it was another re-enactorism. I suspect the latter but thought people on here, particularly those who currently make the waist attaching type, know better.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby James Bretlington » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:08 pm

Well, the Historic Enterprises hose I've bought sit on the waist, not lower. In fact. if you sit them lower you end up with the 'baby's filled his diaper' look



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:13 pm

It's a re-enactorism.

Most re-enactors wear badly fitted doublets. This means they wear them too big and too long to get some semblance of movement. They also wear off-the-peg hose which are too baggy and reach too high - up to waist - so they can wear them like jogging bottoms. Tying the two badly fitting garments together with points is like like putting lipstick on a pig.

Take another look at the images posted. The waistline of the doublet is about level with their elbows. This is not artistic license. It's called your natural waist and it's the point your body bends. That's where the waist of the doublet should sit. If you measure where your natural waist is you'll find it's just below your ribs. Now check a re-enactor doublet - the waist will be somewhere near the beltline - about 4 inches lower than it should be.

Also notice the hose only come up to about the level of the hip-bone, NOT to the waist.

The best advice I can give is find yourself a good tailor who understands medieval fitting, cutting and proportions and have yourself fitted for doublet and hose. It'll cost 50% than off-the-peg but it's worth every penny. Of course, this is easier said than done because although there are lots of people out there who can make clothes (and do it very well) many are trained in modern cutting and sewing and not medieval tailoring, which is quite different. And even fewer have a deep understanding of line and proportion required to interpret and translate images into clothing.

If you fit garments according to those proportions: 1) They'll fit weird until you're used to them and 2) you'll look a lot more like the images and less like a 21st century man in a chequered, baggy, woolly, jogging suit.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby zauberdachs » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:45 am

James Bretlington wrote:Well, the Historic Enterprises hose I've bought sit on the waist, not lower. In fact. if you sit them lower you end up with the 'baby's filled his diaper' look


Their "Doublet, Mahoitred style, 15th century" seems to be about right.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby wulfenganck » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:05 pm

zauberdachs wrote:
James Bretlington wrote:Well, the Historic Enterprises hose I've bought sit on the waist, not lower. In fact. if you sit them lower you end up with the 'baby's filled his diaper' look


Their "Doublet, Mahoitred style, 15th century" seems to be about right.
Maybe, but the main problem is that you order doublet and hose from a catalogue, therefore you have some measurements but it is definitely NOT measured in the exact way it should to make a close fit. Now, I'm not writing against Historical Enterprises or any other shop. But you have to undestand that an order without measuring your sizes in persinal visit at the taylor's will always be not the top-spot.....

Speaking of ill-fitting clothes, there is a prize-regulation on the clothing items sold by taylors in Nuremberg around the 1460s. Among the different types of clothing items they mention some so-called "uncut doublets" for a significantly lower price. After some reading through the regulation my conclusion is, that this were meant to be off-the-peg doublets. But don't have any number of the amount of this cheap clothing in comparison to well-fitting doublets for the average citizen.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:48 pm

That ties in with some reading I have done in which the Duke of Montferento is injured in a skirmish, he goes into a tailors buys a new doublet and then comes out in a much darker doublet that conceals his still bleeding wound from his foes and supporters, drives off his attackers, has a cheering drink and feast with his soldiers and then faints through blood loss (which is the first time that his friends realise he has been hurt).
Even allowing for the fact that he might have had his measurements "on spec" at the place he went into wouldn't allow for a new doublet to have been made.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Phil the Grips » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:11 pm

Not surprising as, up until the 80s (and some folk still do- I have a nice Turkish chap at the end of my street), clothing bought off the peg was meant to be fitted properly at home using the skills learned in Home Economics, or a tailor or seamstress if more complex or you coudl afford it.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby zauberdachs » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:42 pm

wulfenganck wrote:Maybe, but the main problem is that you order doublet and hose from a catalogue, therefore you have some measurements but it is definitely NOT measured in the exact way it should to make a close fit. Now, I'm not writing against Historical Enterprises or any other shop. But you have to undestand that an order without measuring your sizes in persinal visit at the taylor's will always be not the top-spot.....


Absolutely, but it isn't just a matter of getting the right measurements, you have to have the right design. Ordering the correct design from a catalogue is better than getting the wrong design that fits perfectly.

What I'm aiming for is having both the correct design and made to fit. It's best to do the research yourself so you can ask for and ensure you are getting the correct things.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Nigel » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:06 pm

Given the spec you gave for your latest commission :D

Dont worry your new one will be lovely


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby zauberdachs » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:52 pm

Nigel wrote:Given the spec you gave for your latest commission :D


I know, I'm shameful for not having a clue what I should be asking for!

Nigel wrote:Dont worry your new one will be lovely


Never doubted that for a second, having actually got of my backside and made an effort now I was just curious where the traditional re-enactment points-attaching-at-waist design stems from?


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby guthrie » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:56 pm

zauberdachs wrote:where the traditional re-enactment points-attaching-at-waist design stems from?

Some bloke down the pub? LAziness? Poor making of the first set on the edge, so leading to people saying "That doesn't work, they must have put them in higher up"?



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby zauberdachs » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:43 pm

I suspect it is because later period doublets attach at the waist and people, possibly Civil War people, have carried designs backwards. However I don't really know enough to have an opinion.


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby guthrie » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:42 pm

That seems a reasonable hypothesis. I suppose the easiest way to test it is wait to see if anyone replies, and if no one does, ask people at events.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Sir Thomas Hylton » Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:19 am

zauberdachs, Very interesting thread & something I've noticed from certain images I've seen too.

As convenient it is for buying off the peg stuff at events or having others we know making items , ultimately it means to get exactly what is required for accuracy could well involve me & my other half sitting down & tailoring them ourselves to guarantee getting what we want or need.

Do rather like that second image & reminds me of some things I've seen in certain books.

Further cementing the conclusion I've had for some months that the biggest outlay for the 2010 season for myself & the other half could well involve buying lots of Wool & linen etc off the roll.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Hobbitstomper » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:59 am

Where do you attach your points?

To the fox tail. :thumbup:



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby James Bretlington » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:14 pm

The fix for me was actually fairly easy. The HE hose has a definite waist band at the top, so I turned that down on the inside, sewed it down and am now redoing the point holes using the holes that are now on the inside of the waist band as the guide. That's brought them down to a much better height, and I'm much happier.

I've actually made my own hose before, and come a cropper because the damn wools I used (parti - coloured hose) stretched at different rates. Ended up with a gaping hole in the crotch half way through an event.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:46 pm

James Bretlington wrote:I've actually made my own hose before, and come a cropper because the damn wools I used (parti - coloured hose) stretched at different rates. Ended up with a gaping hole in the crotch half way through an event.


Chances are the rip wasn't because of the wool, but because of the fitting. Differences in bias will affect the shape round the leg (one leg will sit askew compared to the other) but shouldn't cause them to rip.

Hose need to be fitted as high up into the crotch as possible - almost touching the pelvic bone, and way higher than the genitals; just as the arm of a doublet should fully enclose the arm and shoulder to give freedom of movement. If the hose don't go up far enough, as you move your legs the hose get pulled apart and will eventually rip.

Fitting hose into your crotch nigh-on impossible to do properly on your own, and you need someone you trust (I mean really trust!) to get in there and do the fitting.


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby James Bretlington » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:34 pm

EnglishArcher wrote:
Fitting hose into your crotch nigh-on impossible to do properly on your own, and you need someone you trust (I mean really trust!) to get in there and do the fitting.


And we have someone who does that for us, and has custom fit hose for every male in the group (and a female we needed to cross dress). I had a different pair from the same pattern that worked great, but the parti ones just split, and we ended up patching with additional material that allowed a bit more freedom of movement, and they lasted the rest of the event.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Langley » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:53 pm

Lady L says there are illustrations of doublets with no point holes at all (so presumably there is a garment underneath like a thin sleeveless doublet to hold the hose up. Notice how I avod the words pourpoint or sleveless doublet like the plague). There are doublets with the holes right at the bottom but there are also doublets with peplums - a very short skirty bit and the point holes in the doublet are above the peplum. In all cases the hose should end on the hip, the waist (i.e. narrowest bit) of the doublet should indeed be at the place you bend and the bottom of the garment flares out again to reach the hose at the hip. My doublets are fitted this way and yes, these days also act as corsets. They have peplums which cover the worst excesses of rear view for reasons of not scaring the horses and small children but are in fact really redundant as far as holding up the hose are concerned. Doublets and hose are pinned together then fitted to me and pinned in (or out) as required to get a very accurate fit and length. I also have linen garments without sleeves so can point hose to those and wear a doublet over the top. That interpretation fits very well with many of the illustrations of people working in a sleeveless garment and is a godsend on hot days doing demos of all sorts of things including archery. Hose are cut on the bias to get the necessary stretchiness to go with a tight fit. The wool had to be an adequate weight - and as pointed out above, if different colours, in the same weave and weight of wool. Much above a 46-50" waits, hose don't work properly and will tear. Split leg is the answer for the larger (=more prosperous?) gentleman who can afford to get his 15th C look right by wearing a longer gown like garment rather than a tight doublet as befits his obviously greater wealth and station. The hose in 15th C if split leg were longer and came further up the leg in any case.



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby gregory23b » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:25 pm

"Notice how I avod the words pourpoint or sleveless doublet like the plague)"

as in "a pourpoint is a sleeveless doublet" ?

good lad ;-)


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby IDEEDEE » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:39 pm

Uh, oh... Just spent an hour or so trawling through my 15thC image files.... Not seen a single example of points at the waistline on any doublet with a skirt. A number pointed at the bottom of the doublet (mainly Italian & German). Several images of points at the waist on short, skirtless doublets (mainly German). Some doublets with point holes, but no evidence of them being used (again, european).

The Huge majority of doublets show no points (or sign of points) whatsoever (i.e. no holes, knots or dingle-dangles).

In some cases this could be because of the scale of the image, but not all. In very many of those pics where the detail should be good enough to show points (and lesser details are shown), they simply ain't there. Lots of (mainly German) images seen of skirted doublets with loose-hanging skirts which are certainly not pointed.

All of this, I assume means one of three things:
1) artists who seem to stick in loads of other costume detail decide, for some reason, to ignore the "ought to be very noticable" points & holes
2) most folk are using the (notorious?) short (i.e. higher-cut than the doublet, as it doesn't show at the sides of split-skirted doublets) sleeveless waistcoat-like-thing to point their hosen to (at waist height presumably)
3) there ain't no points and people are using "magic" hose far earlier than they are meant to (heresy)

I'll keep looking. I don't suppose that there any literary accounts of where the points go?



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby zauberdachs » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:41 am

Don't suppose you can post images to go with the different types? Just to help me wrap my head around them...


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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby Friesian » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:58 am

IDEEDEE wrote:Uh, oh... Just spent an hour or so trawling through my 15thC image files.... Not seen a single example of points at the waistline on any doublet with a skirt. A number pointed at the bottom of the doublet (mainly Italian & German). Several images of points at the waist on short, skirtless doublets (mainly German). Some doublets with point holes, but no evidence of them being used (again, european).

The Huge majority of doublets show no points (or sign of points) whatsoever (i.e. no holes, knots or dingle-dangles).

In some cases this could be because of the scale of the image, but not all. In very many of those pics where the detail should be good enough to show points (and lesser details are shown), they simply ain't there. Lots of (mainly German) images seen of skirted doublets with loose-hanging skirts which are certainly not pointed.

All of this, I assume means one of three things:
1) artists who seem to stick in loads of other costume detail decide, for some reason, to ignore the "ought to be very noticable" points & holes
2) most folk are using the (notorious?) short (i.e. higher-cut than the doublet, as it doesn't show at the sides of split-skirted doublets) sleeveless waistcoat-like-thing to point their hosen to (at waist height presumably)
3) there ain't no points and people are using "magic" hose far earlier than they are meant to (heresy)

I'll keep looking. I don't suppose that there any literary accounts of where the points go?



I'd always assumed that doublets that show no evidence of point holes on the outside would have had tabs to point to on the inside (ie like the tabs sewn inside high length riding boots ) , or course I could be wrong in my assumption but it would make sence & it does work , I've a doublet made like this .................Can soon be altered if I'm wrong !



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Re: Where do you attach your points?

Postby EnglishArcher » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:26 am

I'm intrigued by these images of doublets with no point holes. I'd like to see them too. That would put a whole new twist on things.


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