Points

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Richard Scott
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Points

Post by Richard Scott »

Hello,

New to costume history and this site, but a few questions I would like your views on.

1) For lower-end nobility around 1380-1420, what would the points attaching hose to a doublet be like (material, aiglets, length)?

2) Roughly when did points/laces for doublet fronts get supplanted by buttons?

3) What knots would be used to secure them (this applies to both the hose/doublet and doublet front)?

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Richard.

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EnglishArcher
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Re: Points

Post by EnglishArcher »

Let's see

1) Most likely silk; less likely, but possible, dyed wool. Most likely finger-loop braided (doesn't seem to be much evidence for Lucette in the 14th Century - earlier: yes, later: yes; but not in period. Why? Dunno). Aiglets most likely in latten (brass), possibly silver. Length: about 20cm+ is typically needed.

2) They probably co-existed for most of the life of the doublet. Most re-enactors prefer buttons (probably because it seems more 'normal'). Buttons were very fashionable in the 14thC; and there are extant laced doublets from the 16thC.

3) The half bow. Just about everywhere, from the evidence.
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EnglishArcher
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Re: Points

Post by EnglishArcher »

Supplemental (from my wife, who does a LOT of this stuff!):

Points could also be tablet woven - particularly the longer ones. There's a limit to how long you can finger-loop braid which depends on how far you can spread your arms! (It's about a 60cm point)

Doublets were more likely closed with a single, long, point, tied top-to-bottom, rather than multiple points.

<RANT>
Oh, and if you're going to wear a doublet, make sure it's done up (and holding your hose up!) , and you don't walk around with it hanging open. It's NOT a jacket, it's a doublet. Different thing. Wear it differently. And remember you're nobility. If there's something that drives me up the wall it's the group photo of all the high status nobility sitting around in their underwear at events, wearing hats and thinking they're dressed correctly 'cos they've got a hat on!
</RANT>
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Richard Scott
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Re: Points

Post by Richard Scott »

Thank you very much for both your replies.
EnglishArcher wrote:Doublets were more likely closed with a single, long, point, tied top-to-bottom, rather than multiple points.
I can't visualise what you are describing here. Does the single point 'snake' through the eyelets? If so how is it secured at top and bottom?
EnglishArcher wrote:<RANT>
Oh, and if you're going to wear a doublet, make sure it's done up (and holding your hose up!) , and you don't walk around with it hanging open. It's NOT a jacket, it's a doublet. Different thing. Wear it differently. And remember you're nobility. If there's something that drives me up the wall it's the group photo of all the high status nobility sitting around in their underwear at events, wearing hats and thinking they're dressed correctly 'cos they've got a hat on!
</RANT>
Well working from the inside out, I will have braes and shirt, joined hose and doublet, gown and topped off with a chaperon (apologies for any mis-spellings) so hopefully I will meet the decency criteria!

Cheers,
Richard.

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Re: Points

Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

Doublets could be closed with a single long length point-there are illustrations of this and their being paced with lots of individual points.

Some doublets are designed to gap open to show off the undershirt-italian and, thanks to wulf, german fashions show this.
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Re: Points

Post by EnglishArcher »

Marcus:

I'm with you on the doublet lacing; and I argue with my wife about it (I'm sure if I ever get a divorce, it'll be over doublet lacing!)

Richard:

Yes, you're correct about the single-point lacing: it starts at the top and then 'whips' down to the bottom. Usually I tie mine off with a half-bow to stop it slipping. To do this method you normally need point holes spaced no wider than 1" apart (1/2" is better). By the time you've whipped from top to bottom you don't need too much to hold the point in place.

As to your garments: At least you're wearing the appropriate layers. It's difficult to comment with seeing them, but the garments you describe sound a little too late for the late 14th century. What you describe would be far more typical for the second quarter 15th century onwards.

If I was going to plan a wardrobe from your period (and I have!) I would go for:

Long doublet - at least crotch length; close-buttoned or laced.
Single leg hose, pointed at the bottom of the doublet
Long, high-necked Houpelande with either large, dagged sleeves or dagged bottom (but not both)
Bag hag, or hood worn as a hat.

Here are some pictures of my late 14thC kit (from my wedding)
Image
Image

This is what's underneath the houpelande. In this image you can see the doublet and points (ignore the bollock pouch. I just need something to carry my archery gear. It's not period):
Image
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Colin Middleton
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Re: Points

Post by Colin Middleton »

The bollock pouch was known in that 14th C, but I'd be inclined to say that style was more 15th.

Very nice kit though. I hope to have the 15th C equivalent before too long.

Points can be made from thin leather. They seem to fold double before being pushed into the aiglet and rivited in place (I recomend that you glue them on before riviting and closing).

Apparently you can make longer fingerloop braids, but it takes 2 people (and I suspect quite a lot of co-operation). Personally I find anything over 18" too much of a chore to finger-loop and opt for plaits or something else instead.

To get the 'ladder' effect for the doublet lacing, you tie off at one end, then go out the hole, into the one opposite it, then diagonally down(or up, depending on the direction you're lacing) to the one below (or above) the one you started with and out there. Then repeat until you run out of doublet!

Why do you start lacing at the top, not the bottom? I would have tended to work in the other direction.

Marcus, that German/Italion fashion of doublet was also known in this (unfashionable) corner of Europe during that 15th C.
<RANT>
Oh, and if you're going to wear a doublet, make sure it's done up (and holding your hose up!) , and you don't walk around with it hanging open. It's NOT a jacket, it's a doublet. Different thing. Wear it differently. And remember you're nobility. If there's something that drives me up the wall it's the group photo of all the high status nobility sitting around in their underwear at events, wearing hats and thinking they're dressed correctly 'cos they've got a hat on!
</RANT>
Oh I love you EA! :geek: :D

Best wishes

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Re: Points

Post by EnglishArcher »

Curiously, lacing from the top - particularly on a properly fitted (that is, tight) doublet - is actually easier. Not that there's a lot in it.

I'm not sure having two people helps making a longer braid, unless you have half the loops each - and I think that would be mental! Most of the braids needing two people do so because of the number of loops (one person tending to run out of fingers). For much longer braids I think I'd resort to tablet-weaving.

The bollock pouch in the photo is very much a 15th century design. These days I just use it for keeping my shooting gear in (glove, bracer, stringer, etc). I have a couple of 14th century design pouches, which I'd normally wear. It just so happens that on that day (my wedding day, actually!) I'd just stripped off the gown to go shooting and needed to carry my kit with me.

Oh I love you EA!
Steady-on there, young man!
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Re: Points

Post by gregory23b »

"Points can be made from thin leather."

Yep, leather imported from Spain even, viz - lybell on englysh policy
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Re: Points

Post by IDEEDEE »

Re. securing points: Slightly later perhaps, but In the Washington National Gallery there is a late sixteenth/early seventeenth painting of a lady in a yellow dress, pointed at the sides, where the points clearly come right the way through the aiglets, and are then knotted to prevent pull-through.

Am kicking myself because I didn't take a notebook with me when I visited DC last month, and so,as a result cannot name/date the painting other than from memory (nor the picture, possible a Cranach, of a gentleman in a slashed, fancy black doublet where the slash edged are very clearly "raw" & slightly frayed, nor an image of some nice 1490 "flip-flops" & "flip flop" patterns, nor a painting where a guy's eating knives are suspended from a round "knob" on his belt that looks a bit like the knobs on a Sam Brown, nor....... You get the picture. Grrrr...)

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Re: Points

Post by ValTarrant »

IDEEDEE wrote: an image of some nice 1490 "flip-flops"
I want some!

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Re: Points

Post by Sophia »

EnglishArcher wrote:Curiously, lacing from the top - particularly on a properly fitted (that is, tight) doublet - is actually easier. Not that there's a lot in it.

I'm not sure having two people helps making a longer braid, unless you have half the loops each - and I think that would be mental! Most of the braids needing two people do so because of the number of loops (one person tending to run out of fingers). For much longer braids I think I'd resort to tablet-weaving.

The bollock pouch in the photo is very much a 15th century design. These days I just use it for keeping my shooting gear in (glove, bracer, stringer, etc). I have a couple of 14th century design pouches, which I'd normally wear. It just so happens that on that day (my wedding day, actually!) I'd just stripped off the gown to go shooting and needed to carry my kit with me.

Oh I love you EA!

Steady-on there, young man!
Two people can make a long simple braid with one person acting as a beater to ensure tension. Long complex braids with more than eight loops require three even four people, two/three to braid and one to act as a beater.

I have a gorgeous 45" bicoloured 5 loop braid in filament silk that the silk women at Kentwell made for me in return for some filament silk yarn. On a short person like me this is long enough for the front of a Kirtle.

Sophia :D
aka Thomasin Chedzoy, Tailor at Kentwell Hall

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Re: Points

Post by EnglishArcher »

I'm getting green and white chevroned finger-loop points for my new Tudor kit (very Tudor colours, I thought!) :)
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Re: Points

Post by Richard Scott »

Thanks for everyone's help.

By strange coincidence this costume is for my wedding too. I don't do any re-enactment or living history, but may well do so in the future.

The doublet is an off-the-peg one that happens to fit very nicely, but only if the front is overlapped so the eyelet holes line up. If I try lacing as in EnglishArcher's last photo it loosens the doublet and makes it feel wrong.

I may have to go for individual short points for the front of the doublet.

Cheers,
Richard.

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Re: Points

Post by EnglishArcher »

Richard,

If you do decide to go on into re-enactment i would highly recommend you invest in a properly fitted, made-to-measure doublet. As you're not used to medieval clothing I can almost guarantee that if you're current doublet feels good then it's probably completely wrong! A properly fitted doublet is a most peculiar sensation until you are used to it. It should feel like you almost can't move in it, but it still allows a full range of movement. It should also feel about 6 inches too short!

Properly fitted foundation garments like the doublet and hose will make all the rest of your clothing - which can be off the peg - sit much better and will make you stand and move more like a medieval person (that is, not slob about like us lazy, slovenly 21 century people)

Good luck with the wedding, too.
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Re: Points

Post by gregory23b »

"If you do decide to go on into re-enactment i would highly recommend you invest in a properly fitted, made-to-measure doublet. As you're not used to medieval clothing I can almost guarantee that if you're current doublet feels good then it's probably completely wrong! A properly fitted doublet is a most peculiar sensation until you are used to it. It should feel like you almost can't move in it, but it still allows a full range of movement. It should also feel about 6 inches too short!

Properly fitted foundation garments like the doublet and hose will make all the rest of your clothing - which can be off the peg - sit much better and will make you stand and move more like a medieval person (that is, not slob about like us lazy, slovenly 21 century people)"


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Re: Points

Post by EnglishArcher »

I love you all, too.

Group hug!
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Re: Points

Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

Go boil yer heads you bunch of hippies. Bloody group hugs.
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Re: Points

Post by Richard Scott »

EnglishArcher wrote:Richard,

If you do decide to go on into re-enactment i would highly recommend you invest in a properly fitted, made-to-measure doublet. As you're not used to medieval clothing I can almost guarantee that if you're current doublet feels good then it's probably completely wrong! A properly fitted doublet is a most peculiar sensation until you are used to it. It should feel like you almost can't move in it, but it still allows a full range of movement. It should also feel about 6 inches too short!

Properly fitted foundation garments like the doublet and hose will make all the rest of your clothing - which can be off the peg - sit much better and will make you stand and move more like a medieval person (that is, not slob about like us lazy, slovenly 21 century people)
I'm not under any illusions about the suitability of the clothes for re-enactment, and I do take onboard your comments about made-to-measure for the future. If anything from this costume is reusable that would be a bonus (except the footwear, which we hope will see many years service).

So far, excluding the footwear, I have spent no more than I would have on a decent wedding suit, and the fiancée has spent a lot less than on a conventional wedding dress!
EnglishArcher wrote:Good luck with the wedding, too.
Thank you very much.

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Re: Points

Post by lidimy »

Sorry for being late... was just intruiged by this.

1) Most likely silk; less likely, but possible, dyed wool.
at what kind of social level would one be to use disposable income to buy silk rather than woollen points? Are they just one of those petty excesses which you hope everyone notices when wearing? I've always made mine from wool without giving it much thought :?

Also, are you in Erpyngham's Retinue..? :D
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Re: Points

Post by Colin Middleton »

Not wishing to be 'difficult', but why do you think that any points were made of wool?

IIRC from the MoL books, the surviving examples are silk or leather (probably tawed not tanned). You might do well to raise this query in Costumes and see if you can get Gina involved.

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Colin

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Re: Points

Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

Why do you think they are not Colin, not wanting to be difficult...
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Re: Points

Post by lidimy »

I don't know... like I said, it's not something I've actually thought about before!

I have no idea about the life span of a wool point vs a silk point but for daily hard wear mightn't it be forgiveable that wool points might not survive? They do get pretty hard use.

Also, for things like lacing the front of a kirtle where a considerable length is used and not necessarily even seen, why go for silk at presumably greater expense?

Really not my area of expertise, just wondering :D (and not, of course, being difficult.)
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Re: Points

Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

I have a mixture of points some made out of wool and some out of silk. On my best clothes and for my armour I use silk as it is so hard wearing, however it was quite common to simply cut points rather than untie them which is why I wear wool elsewhere. I have no idea if they are authentic or not and would like to find out more.
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Re: Points

Post by EnglishArcher »

The Museum of London has at least two tubular tablet woven worsted points from the last quarter of the 14th century. Catalogue No's 144 and 362
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Re: Points

Post by Colin Middleton »

There's our answer then! Tablet woven :roll: woolen points are okay. Silk for strength or 'quality'.

Thanks EA.
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Re: Points

Post by Colin Middleton »

And just for completeness...
Marcus Woodhouse wrote:Why do you think they are not Colin, not wanting to be difficult...
Something that a silk woman once said to me that I can't remember properly. That and I like to challenge these assumptions as we're often surprised by the answers!
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Re: Points

Post by lidimy »

Tabet woven! Well what use is that to people like me whodon't know how to tablet weave?? :( I might actually have to learn!

Silly, silly medieval people.
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Re: Points

Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

Wearing silk points that i had spent a fortune upon (I dare not post in case my wife finds out) in my hose and doublet did lead to me nearly shitting myself as I got the bastard things all double knotted while trying to remove my doublet and was left wrenching the ensemble down because I am just too much of a tight *rse to cut the points free.
Of course if i had been a real tight *rse the whole must get undressed before I sh** me pants thing came to fruition would never have happened.
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Re: Points

Post by EnglishArcher »

Been there, done that! You have my sympathies.

Did these people never sh**?
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