C15th Clothing Conondrums

Moderator: Moderators

eaw458
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:37 pm
Location: York
Contact:

C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by eaw458 »

Been studying farmers and their outfits and noticed quite a few illustrations with the following two things that I am not quite sure about:

(1) Rolled down hose

Image

These type of garmens are frequently shown by people working in a field:

(a) bare legs
(b) rolled down hose
(c) tied with string around the ankles
(d) nearly always white

Does this indicate not proper hose, but some form of linen / hemp canvas protective leggings / gaiters? If so, why is the fabric so bulky around the knees? Looks like much more than what is needed to tie a string around your leg at knee height.

(2) Pourpoint over outer garment

Image

And then a few of these:

(a) always worn when working with arable crops
(b) white pourpoint with really large armholes
(c) not laced onto anything
(d) over a coloured garment

Surely this chap is not wearing a coloured shirt?

Is this the same as / similar to a sowing apron? And if so, then why is this being worn in this instance - i.e. at harvest time?

Comments gratefully received.

Thanks,

Walter
York City Levy
Last edited by eaw458 on Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by zauberdachs »

What's the date and origin of the images? The first image looks more 16th century to my eye.
Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

eaw458
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:37 pm
Location: York
Contact:

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by eaw458 »

zauberdachs wrote:What's the date and origin of the images? The first image looks more 16th century to my eye.
Nope - late C15th, Bruges, so the British Library says

User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by zauberdachs »

eaw458 wrote:
zauberdachs wrote:What's the date and origin of the images? The first image looks more 16th century to my eye.
Nope - late C15th, Bruges, so the British Library says
Interesting, but If you could post the full info on both images that would be quite useful... Where the images come from and when exactly they were made will have a huge import on the costume.
Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

eaw458
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:37 pm
Location: York
Contact:

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by eaw458 »

zauberdachs wrote:
eaw458 wrote:
zauberdachs wrote:What's the date and origin of the images? The first image looks more 16th century to my eye.
Nope - late C15th, Bruges, so the British Library says
Interesting, but If you could post the full info on both images that would be quite useful... Where the images come from and when exactly they were made will have a huge import on the costume.
Top one - Petrus de Crescentis, Des Profits ruraux des champs, Bruges, late C15th
Bottom one - Book of Hours, Bruges, late C15th

I shall look forward to your interpretation now you're fully informed.

User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by zauberdachs »

eaw458 wrote: now you're fully informed.
Sorry if you feel hassled but knowing where, when and by whom is generally considered a basic level of info to allow interpretation of an image.

I personally have no idea but thought it would help you get one.
Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

Jack the dodgy builder
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:59 pm

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by Jack the dodgy builder »

These conondrums are really fascinating, good thread

Not wanting to be to perdantic but in the picture of the guy threshing the purpoint is clearly laced to the chaps hose?

Jack

User avatar
zauberdachs
Post Centurion
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:38 pm

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by zauberdachs »

Indeed, not the usual seed sowing apron. See below for comparison:

Grimani Breviary: The Month of October (1490-1510) Venice
Attachments
Sowing apron.JPG
Sowing apron.JPG (29.76 KiB) Viewed 4914 times
Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

eaw458
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:37 pm
Location: York
Contact:

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by eaw458 »

After further discussion,

(a) appears to be two people who have taken off their hose, but are still wearing canvas gaiters for working the land

(b) would be a doublet with a body from undyed, unbleached wool, and coloured sleeves and neck, designed to be worn under a sleeveless gown

User avatar
Dave B
Post Knight
Posts: 1737
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:34 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by Dave B »

eaw458 wrote: (b) would be a doublet with a body from undyed, unbleached wool, and coloured sleeves and neck, designed to be worn under a sleeveless gown
But is the fabric you can see in the armhole, the same fabric you can see on the arm? somehow it looks different. I know this sounds odd, but could it even be a sleeveless doublet and shirt, plus some sort of point on oversleeves to protect the arms when working? Never heard of such a thing but thats how it looks to me
Find time in every day to look at your life and say; 'Well, it could be worse'

Kurt's uncle Bob.

User avatar
Sophia
Post Centurion
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:46 pm
Location: Camberwell, London
Contact:

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by Sophia »

Was talking to Sarah Thursfield at TORM and she has been looking at images of this type and ones with a similar cut but all the same fabric. Apparently on some of her sources you can see the seams. She has posited a type of doublet with a pieced shoulder and inset sleeve which allows a very close fit and a high level of mobility due to the placement of the seams in relation to the shoulder blade and the ball joint of the shoulder. She had made a display version and had it on her stall at TORM and having had a look at it it seemed very workable and economic on fabric.

The base pattern of this could also be the origin of the sleeveless doublets one very occasionally sees with heavily rebated armholes.

It is on my list of things to look into more closely.
aka Thomasin Chedzoy, Tailor at Kentwell Hall

guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by guthrie »

The interesting thing from the first picture is that it suggests that wearing some sort of working tunic thing is, for these guys, more important than wearing adoublet. If we go for the no hose, then why bother wearing a doublet? Presumably they are wearing shirts, perhaps braes, and with the tunic fitting the way it does, would still be quite modest. And would it permit more strenuous work than a closely fitted doublet?

eaw458
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:37 pm
Location: York
Contact:

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by eaw458 »

guthrie wrote:The interesting thing from the first picture is that it suggests that wearing some sort of working tunic thing is, for these guys, more important than wearing adoublet. If we go for the no hose, then why bother wearing a doublet? Presumably they are wearing shirts, perhaps braes, and with the tunic fitting the way it does, would still be quite modest. And would it permit more strenuous work than a closely fitted doublet?
I agree, the rolled up sleeves support this too. There certainly would not be a doublet underneath this 'tunic' (would you use the word 'gown' in this context too?) and maybe it's also a simple matter of no doublet = no hose.

guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by guthrie »

Coat perhaps rather than gown,just going by what I've read in the medieval taylors assistant.

Marcus Woodhouse
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 3337
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:35 pm

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

The two french scholars whose book i have just finished did query if this was artistic license, along the lines of it just being the way an artist showed peasents at work regardless of it being factual or not, they also suggest that it may be an artists attempt to show how people used to dress in them olden days. They might be wearing a sleeveless doublet I suppose but that begs the question why roll the sleeves up on your coat, roll down your hose etc when it would be easier just to take a layer off.
Buggered if I know.
OSTENDE MIHI PECUNIAM!

the real lord duvet

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by the real lord duvet »

was i the only person to think that in the second picture - the guy is obviously wearing a hi vis jacket to stop him being run over by a plough.

thought not.

Marcus Woodhouse
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 3337
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:35 pm

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

I reckon he's never used a flail to thresh with before and thought it would be a good idea to put his brig on (safty first and all).
OSTENDE MIHI PECUNIAM!

the real lord duvet

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by the real lord duvet »

could be an italian prisoner of war?

the jacket has a big P on it?

User avatar
behanner
Posts: 201
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:39 am

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by behanner »

They aren't hose here is a much better painting of what they are.
http://www.wga.hu/art/l/lieferin/pilgrims.jpg

You see them more frequently on shepards then farmers. And the first image is very late-15th century.

Friesian
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by Friesian »

The second image of the chap wearing his doublet over his tunic/gown is quite a common combination .
Lady Roos & I have just returnrd from the Charles The Bold exhibition in Vienna -There is a red silk tunic on show that dates from the 1470s (albeit with 16th century alterations to the sleeves) that was designed to be worn in this fashion . The majority of the men in The Eaton wall paintings (1480 ?) are shown dressed as such .
I recon perhaps us re=enactors have been a bit slow on the uptake as I've yet to see a 15thc bod dressed in this style .

User avatar
behanner
Posts: 201
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:39 am

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by behanner »

Friesian wrote:The second image of the chap wearing his doublet over his tunic/gown is quite a common combination .
I disagree about what is shown there. It is definitely not a poirpoint over a tunic/gown since the garment doesn't come down bellow the waist. While it is possible that it is a sleevless poirpoint over a regular doublet I would argue that is is a doublet made of two different fabrics, since the sleeves of a doublet show when worn with a sleeveless livery coat you can do the body in a cheaper fabric and still get a sumptous look.

Friesian
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by Friesian »

behanner wrote:
Friesian wrote:The second image of the chap wearing his doublet over his tunic/gown is quite a common combination .
I disagree about what is shown there. It is definitely not a poirpoint over a tunic/gown since the garment doesn't come down bellow the waist. While it is possible that it is a sleevless poirpoint over a regular doublet I would argue that is is a doublet made of two different fabrics, since the sleeves of a doublet show when worn with a sleeveless livery coat you can do the body in a cheaper fabric and still get a sumptous look.
The gown we saw in Vienna was without doubt made to have a sleevless doublet worn over .It was taken by The Swiss from The Burgundians as part of the famous "Swiss Booty " .It has been examined by medieval fabrics experts from all over the world who came to this conclusion , as stated , it is pure red silk fabric -stunning .The sleeves were altered in the 1500s to reflect the latest fashion . Not sure why a doublet needs to come below the waist (?) ,look at some of Talhoffers sketches ,most seem to finnish on the hips ,bear in mind point holes can be hidden on the inside of a garment as well .
I belive Gregory (Jorge) may have seen the garment I refer to also .
There are many illustrations thet show this combination , not just the one posted above .

Will have to agree to differ on this I suppose :D

User avatar
behanner
Posts: 201
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:39 am

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by behanner »

It would help if you read what I wrote more carefully.
A doublet/poirpoint cannot be worn over a coat or gown because a doublet ties into your hose. A coat or gown almost always goes down bellow that.
Especially since the exibition started there is very little agreement on the garment, they can't even decide which side is the front.

There is no reason to think this garment should have a doublet worn over it.
Image

User avatar
wulfenganck
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:54 am
Location: Seligenstadt, Germany

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by wulfenganck »

Friesian wrote:The gown we saw in Vienna was without doubt made to have a sleevless doublet worn over .It was taken by The Swiss from The Burgundians as part of the famous "Swiss Booty " .It has been examined by medieval fabrics experts from all over the world who came to this conclusion , as stated , it is pure red silk fabric -stunning .The sleeves were altered in the 1500s to reflect the latest fashion . Not sure why a doublet needs to come below the waist (?) ,look at some of Talhoffers sketches ,most seem to finnish on the hips ,bear in mind point holes can be hidden on the inside of a garment as well .
I belive Gregory (Jorge) may have seen the garment I refer to also .
There are many illustrations thet show this combination , not just the one posted above .

Will have to agree to differ on this I suppose :D
Sorry, but this "without doubt made to have a sleeveless doublet worn over it" is new to me. In fact, what I remember from the exhibition in Berne, it is even doubted, that the reconstruction itself was correct. IIRC there seem to have occured the major mistake of misjudging the back for the front of the gown.
Now, there are lots of examples where sleeveless gowns are worn over the doublet, but I can't recall examples vice-versa; in fact, there are just very few mentions/illustrations of sleeveless doublets at all.

You're right about the Talhiffer doublets concerning the length;
but then again on the other hand these doublets are a very good example for the fashion around the 1450s-1460s of having doublets with different coulours for the arms and collar. Same can be found in the fencing manuscript of master Paulus Kal who was contemporary to Talhoffer.
In the Talhofer manuscript from 1459 (the Thott ms nowadays Royal Library of Kopenhagen) you will notice lots of doublets with a sort of "grand assiettes" cut for the sleeves. Link: http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haand ... hofer.html
Paulus Kal (sadly only black and white scans): http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... seite.html

AND illustrations like the Talhoffer and Kal manuscripts are a good example for another (german) fashion concerning doublets: the sleeves are sewn to the body on top of the sleeves (I have yet failed to find an convincing example for sleeves COMPLETELY laced to the bidy of the doublet in german fashion) while the armpits are left open, sometimes connected via laces to the body of the doublet.

Back to the originally posted pics: I don't find the doublet so unusual, there are quite a lot of examples for doublets like that, see above.

Friesian
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by Friesian »

behanner wrote:It would help if you read what I wrote more carefully.
A doublet/poirpoint cannot be worn over a coat or gown because a doublet ties into your hose. A coat or gown almost always goes down bellow that.
Especially since the exibition started there is very little agreement on the garment, they can't even decide which side is the front.

There is no reason to think this garment should have a doublet worn over it.
Image
I read your post very carefully , thank you .

From the latest catalogue :

"The most recent research, by Karen Christie and Johann Pietsch, has shown that the coat originally had a less narrow waist. The lower part was only slightly flared, but did not fall like a flounce (see museum dossiers). The garment also had conically tapering straight sleeves, rather than puffed ones. These changes must've been made around 1530 in accordance with fashion preferences then predominating. The garment waws closed at the back with lacing. The original stitched eyelets have been preserved."

It goes on to say:

"It is therefore probably an undergarment, over which a second, sleeveless coat was worn. Long sleeved red undercoats of this type are found, for example, in miniatures for the epic of Girart de Roussillon (Vienna, Osterreichische National bibliothek, Cod. 2549, f.9v)."

As I said previously there is nothing to prevent points being attatched inside a garment allowing an outer doublet ( or tunic if you deem the word doublet inapropriate) to be worn over .

Friesian
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by Friesian »

wulfenganck wrote:
Friesian wrote:The gown we saw in Vienna was without doubt made to have a sleevless doublet worn over .It was taken by The Swiss from The Burgundians as part of the famous "Swiss Booty " .It has been examined by medieval fabrics experts from all over the world who came to this conclusion , as stated , it is pure red silk fabric -stunning .The sleeves were altered in the 1500s to reflect the latest fashion . Not sure why a doublet needs to come below the waist (?) ,look at some of Talhoffers sketches ,most seem to finnish on the hips ,bear in mind point holes can be hidden on the inside of a garment as well .
I belive Gregory (Jorge) may have seen the garment I refer to also .
There are many illustrations thet show this combination , not just the one posted above .

Will have to agree to differ on this I suppose :D
Sorry, but this "without doubt made to have a sleeveless doublet worn over it" is new to me. In fact, what I remember from the exhibition in Berne, it is even doubted, that the reconstruction itself was correct. IIRC there seem to have occured the major mistake of misjudging the back for the front of the gown.
Now, there are lots of examples where sleeveless gowns are worn over the doublet, but I can't recall examples vice-versa; in fact, there are just very few mentions/illustrations of sleeveless doublets at all.

You're right about the Talhiffer doublets concerning the length;
but then again on the other hand these doublets are a very good example for the fashion around the 1450s-1460s of having doublets with different coulours for the arms and collar. Same can be found in the fencing manuscript of master Paulus Kal who was contemporary to Talhoffer.
In the Talhofer manuscript from 1459 (the Thott ms nowadays Royal Library of Kopenhagen) you will notice lots of doublets with a sort of "grand assiettes" cut for the sleeves. Link: http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haand ... hofer.html
Paulus Kal (sadly only black and white scans): http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... seite.html

AND illustrations like the Talhoffer and Kal manuscripts are a good example for another (german) fashion concerning doublets: the sleeves are sewn to the body on top of the sleeves (I have yet failed to find an convincing example for sleeves COMPLETELY laced to the bidy of the doublet in german fashion) while the armpits are left open, sometimes connected via laces to the body of the doublet.

Back to the originally posted pics: I don't find the doublet so unusual, there are quite a lot of examples for doublets like that, see above.
Your right about the reconstruction being wrong .It was restored in the 1960s & reconstructed wrongly ,it has since been put back to its original pre 1960s post 1530s shape ..........I'm begining to think if I stopped using the term doublet to describe the over garment we may not be a million miles from agreeing . :)
If any one can post a link to The Eaton wall paintings (pretty please) ,the combination is quite common.

As for wholly pointed sleeves ,I agree ,they only seem to be partially laced

User avatar
wulfenganck
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:54 am
Location: Seligenstadt, Germany

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by wulfenganck »

@Friesian: ah, I see. It must have been the term doublet itching me because I relate that mainly to an the undergarment which holds up one's hosen and which is worn under outer garments - although I can recall other books mentioning a doublet for an longer outer garment. Just another time where names can be quite misleading.....(I have for example yet failed to find a strict rule how to differ between a "Schecke" and a "Schaube" - german fashion, so no interest for you, just an example).

User avatar
wulfenganck
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:54 am
Location: Seligenstadt, Germany

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by wulfenganck »

Friesian wrote:.....If any one can post a link to The Eaton wall paintings (pretty please) ,the combination is quite common.
Ah yes, I'd be interested in a link - for pure curiousity and for this discussion!

User avatar
behanner
Posts: 201
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:39 am

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by behanner »

Friesian wrote:
garment waws closed at the back with lacing. The original stitched eyelets have been preserved."

"It is therefore probably an undergarment, over which a second, sleeveless coat was worn. Long sleeved red undercoats of this type are found, for example, in miniatures for the epic of Girart de Roussillon (Vienna, Osterreichische National bibliothek, Cod. 2549, f.9v)."

As I said previously there is nothing to prevent points being attatched inside a garment allowing an outer doublet ( or tunic if you deem the word doublet inapropriate) to be worn over .
Whoever wrote that should be sacked. Portaits show that most gowns and doublets for that matter opened in the front. There are a variety of closures that hints can be seen of. Several costumers have seriously questioned the idea of this garment being closed in the back and without further evidence then what is currently availible openly I'd have to agree.
The determination of it being an undergarment would be based on whether or not it has a place to point hose on the inside. While it could I doubt it.
The fact that they reference Cod. 2549 shows that they aren't experts in costume or art history. Cod. 2549 is dated before 1450, so like 20-30 years before the garment in question. With the number of manuscripts made for the Burgundian court in that period its a horrible choice to look at.
It is very well know for this image.
Image
and here is another one from it.
Image
Just because someone says it is something and they are called an expert doesn't make it so.
Are there sleeveless garments that can be worn over that garment or a doublet or other kinds of gowns, yes but they have absolutely nothing to do with the image at the begining of this thread.

Friesian
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Re: C15th Clothing Conondrums

Post by Friesian »

wulfenganck wrote:
Friesian wrote:.....If any one can post a link to The Eaton wall paintings (pretty please) ,the combination is quite common.
Ah yes, I'd be interested in a link - for pure curiousity and for this discussion!
I took some photo's when we visited about 6 years ago that seem to have been lost when we moved house - I will try looking for them again if nobody else can help .

Post Reply