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How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:00 pm
by Colin Middleton
I've just bought a pair of gussets for my armour and am trying to work out the best way to attach them to my arming doublet. They're 6mm links, so anything that I use can't be too big!

What have people on here tried and found to work or fail?

Many thanks

Colin

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:04 pm
by John Waller
Never done it but How a Man shall be Armed says

gussetis of mayle muste be sowid un to the dowbelet in the bought of the arme.
Which sort of translates as

To lace the gussets of mail must be sewn onto the doublet also at the break in the arm and at the underarm.

So sew them.

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:52 pm
by Colin Middleton
I was under the impression that there was evidence for tying them on with ribbons too.

I had considered sewing them in place, but again I'm wondering do you cover the edges of the mail first? Do I run a lace through the mail and then sew that to the doublet? Either of these slight alteration might overcome the potential risk of the mail wearing it's way through the thread used to sew it, which I have known happen on mailed gauntlets.

That's why I was asking for experinces.

Thanks for reminding me of the quote though. That definitely gives me a direction to head...

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:54 pm
by Colin Middleton
I was under the impression that there was evidence for tying them on with ribbons too.

I had considered sewing them in place, but again I'm wondering do you cover the edges of the mail first? Do I run a lace through the mail and then sew that to the doublet? Either of these slight alteration might overcome the potential risk of the mail wearing it's way through the thread used to sew it, which I have known happen on mailed gauntlets.

That's why I was asking for experinces.

Thanks for reminding me of the quote though. That definitely gives me a direction to head...

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:03 pm
by arrowmaker
Colin I was very tempted to say you ***** **** :twisted: :D but thought better of if
Fred

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:59 pm
by Strickland
Many moons ago I used a heavy duty waxed thread for mine, worked a treat. Occasionally with butted type mail the thread slipped through the ring but it was any easy fix.


Neil :twisted:

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:33 pm
by arrowmaker
arrowmaker wrote:Colin I was very tempted to say you GREAT **** :twisted: :D but thought better of if
Fred

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:41 pm
by Phil the Grips
I just stitched mine straight on to the doublet- be sure to postion them with your arms raised or you'll have that embarrasing bit where you align them nicely and then try to do anything and find them in the wrong place and your arms locked!

HE put arming holes into their doublets so that they can be pointed or stitched and most folk end up just stitching anyways as it is simpler, cheaper( points cost!) and just as effective, if not more so.

Running thread repairs may be necessary but then the voiders need to come off anyways at regualr timesto refurbish/throw away your doublet

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:01 pm
by Laffin Jon Terris
If i ever get an arming doublet finished to the point where I'm totally happy with it, I'll sew lots of points in to tie the mail with (the voiders will be backed with a layer of fabric and edged to re-enforce them for this purpose!)

As to where the idea of bows has come from, this image by Moroni springs to mind:
Image

IIRC there was a mail panel in the Wallace Collection, sewn on a fabric backing and with lots of ribbon (as opposed to thin point) ties on it.

JonT

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:13 am
by Sir Thomas Hylton
Colin Middleton wrote:I was under the impression that there was evidence for tying them on with ribbons too.

I had considered sewing them in place, but again I'm wondering do you cover the edges of the mail first? Do I run a lace through the mail and then sew that to the doublet? Either of these slight alteration might overcome the potential risk of the mail wearing it's way through the thread used to sew it, which I have known happen on mailed gauntlets.

That's why I was asking for experinces.

Thanks for reminding me of the quote though. That definitely gives me a direction to head...
My first inclination was to laugh. But thought about it & if the ribbons were of silk, that is an extremely strong material, certainly less likely to breakage than leather can be.

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:30 pm
by Colin Middleton
Okay, so sewing seems to be the best plan (damn, I didn't want to unpick them to wash it, oh well!). Do they need backing or edgine in any way, or is it simply sew them on?

As to the arms raised, I take it that's above the head, rather than just out to the sides?

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:53 pm
by Adam R
Hi Colin,
I'll just echo what has already been said - history says sew or implies pointing. Mine are sewn with heavy duty thread and because I am poor my butted links do slip threads from time to time. Be extremely careful about how you line up where the voiders are stitched though because too much mail bunched up can lead closed cannons to no longer fit or elbows to be restricted - similarly too tight and you loose movement ot tear the doublet :S
Cheers
Adam

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:17 am
by Jim
My voiders are pointed onto my arming doublet in several places: in the armpit, at the top of the shoulder, and at the front and back at the top and bottom of the square piece on the body. Then I ran a leather thong all the way down the top of the arm, effectively sewing the two halves together and tightening them up against the arm. Works very well. I used Cap-a-pie rivetted flat-section maille voiders, BTW. All point holes are hand stitched and reinforced inside with thick plastic washers. What's out of sight is out of mind.

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:01 pm
by Colin Middleton
Adam R wrote:Be extremely careful about how you line up where the voiders are stitched though because too much mail bunched up can lead closed cannons to no longer fit or elbows to be restricted - similarly too tight and you loose movement ot tear the doublet :S
Cheers
Adam
Thankfully the arm harness hasn't been made yet. I've got to attach the voiders to the doublet before I get measured up at TORM.

Thanks for the tips guys.

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:28 pm
by Adam R
So you're doing it the right way round? I wish had! - Who is furnishing you with your armour then, care to name names?

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:23 pm
by Colin Middleton
Aplaisance. I've been picking it up from them bit by bit, so I've already got leg harness, cuirass and pauldrons. I've now got arm harness and gauntlets on order and I'm filling in other bits too as money allows. It means that I can afford the armour and the soft kit to support it!

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:29 pm
by Frances Perry
My voiders are sewn to the jack with waxed linen thread - the only section that is not sewn is the straight piece at the bottom of the rib cage, or you will find that you can't lift your arm up higher than your shoulder!

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:49 am
by Adam R
Hi Francis,

I reckon that's more to do with how 'compressed' the mail is as you sew it - voiders have to expand to cover the longer line of a lifted underarm but you can account for this by making sure the mail has the flex to accomodate this, ie stitching it with the links at only partial extension. I'm not sure I'm making myself clear there but I can happily show you if you're at TORM at the same time as me :) I have tried both undone bottoms ( :o ) and stitched-compressed and the latter wins.

Another issue is the cut of the arming doublet. If the sleeves are fitted to the body correctly (ie the ball joint is all within the sleeve NOT within the body like modern garments) then this reduces the movement of the doublet as a whole (allowing pointing of the cuisses) as the arms lift AND the amount the mail needs to extend.

Cheers
Adam

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:28 am
by Fox
Thanks to everyone whose contributed to this thread. I've just started attaching voiders in the last week or so.
I'm not sure if I've got it right yet (more testing required), but I was certainly thinking about the right things as I'm doing it.

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:48 pm
by Colin Middleton
Likewise, thanks for the advice. I have (just about) got the join in the sleeve, though the sleeve is open under the arm (it's a modified mistake, which will get re-made in the near future), so that's made things easier.

So far I've got one voider mostly sewn into place. I was actually able to pin it on, using many large dressmaking pins, which enabled (with some stabbing) me to keep checking the fit regularly. It currently looks like I can riase my arm all the way without problem. There is a small rise at the bottom of the ribs, which I intend to fix by extinding the body peice (which was too short when I bought it) and pinning the bottom when my arm is raised. That will give me a small bag when I lower the arm, but permit me full flexibility.

The key mistake that I made on my first try was not getting the arm-pit of the voider high enough. It really has to go RIGHT into your armpit.

I'll have it with me at TORM on Saturday as I want to talk to Mark (Cap-A-Pie) about it and Duncan (A Plaisance) needs to measure me for my arms when I'm wearing it.

Thanks again.

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:06 pm
by Colin Middleton
I've managed to get the voiders all attached (or there about). I still need to expand the mail on the torso and I'll need to sew it back on after I've done that.

I must say that I'm very impressed with the quality of the mail from Cap-A-Pie. The 6mm solid & riveted flat ring mail feels wonderful to handle. I'm looking forward to getting to try it out on the field.

Best wishes and thanks for the advice!

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:03 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
I'd be happy to stab you Colin.

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:09 pm
by Colin Middleton
Eeeeewwww!!!!! :sick:

Re: How do you attach your gussets (voiders)

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:00 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
You ungrateful old sod. Hoestly you try to help someone out by offering to stab them and thats the reaction you get. Well you can p*ss off and stab yourself now for all I care.