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A few questions.

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:56 pm
by Master Jarvis
Good Afternoon everybody.
I have just joined this forum, primarily because I plan to become involved in re-enactment quite soon. I will be fifteen in two weeks, and hope to join my local group (Knights In Battle in Sheffield) when I turn 16 (as before this I would have to pressgang a parent into joining with me, which is extremely unlikely to happen).
In the intervening year I plan to stockpile a) cash and b) re-enactment equipment and garb.
I now have many questions, answers to which would make this process much easier... I hope that some intelligent soul will take pity on my noobish flounderings and help out.
Apologies if my demands for answers seem arrogant... let the questions commence!
1) Split vs joined hosen: Which are correct for which periods? KIB is, as far as I can tell, mainly concerned with the 13th and 15th centuries, but I would be interested in any information on the topic.
2) Authenticity, no.1: Despite being more of an academe than a craftsman (Latin translations, anyone?) I plan to construct a very simple sprung pole lathe based on this fifteenth century drawing:
Lathe.jpg
However, due to a limited budget (effectively three years' worth of pocket money), space (a corner of my father's garage) and the requirement for the lathe to be able to be dissassembled I plan to create the pole mount in a manner akin to that depicted in this photograph:
springpole3.jpg
springpole3.jpg (18.89 KiB) Viewed 3889 times
Would this be acceptable from an authenticity standpoint? Although I cannot find any period depictions of a lathe of this form it would seem very unlikely that such a simple alternative was never attempted. Is this assumption, however, viable, or indeed acceptable as a basis for reconstruction?
3) Authenticity, no.2: As regards joinery, how accurate must joints be? I would like to use keyed tenons in order to be able to take down the turning base of my lathe, but have read that these joints were generally only used in Germany. Is this still acceptable? Again, it seems likely that English carpenters would still have had knowledge of how to make these.
4) Shields: I have been planning to create a basic heater shield for a while now, and have drawn up a few plans. The texts upon which I have based these refer to layers of wood, creating a laminated effect which gives the shield strength and helps it to retain its curve. The few websites that I have been able to find which offer practical advice instruct me to use plywood for these layers- can this be historically accurate? Any advice or links related to the construction of a shield would be greatly appreciated.

I believe that this is all for now, but you may expect a fresh and overwhelming tide of questions soon.
Thankyou in advance for any responses,
Master Jarvis (I am cunningly concealing my first name as I am told I must never, ever, ever give my details on the internet...)

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:26 am
by paul atkin
your idea of a pole support is certainly viable, but you would also have to anchor it down so why bother carring extra wood, just whack a stake into the ground tie it to that and support with simple X frame, my lathe is built using wedged tennons perfectly acceptable they date back to at least the viking age, folks will be more interested in what you are making than what you are making it on. just dont use modern tools.

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:45 am
by narvek
I use heather shield made of planks of wood rather then from plywood and I feel it much lighter than plywood one (and it's easier to make curved). Just be sure to cover it few times with linnen and glue it through.

Keep it cool. : :thumbup:

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:31 am
by guthrie
Master Jarvis wrote: 1) Split vs joined hosen: Which are correct for which periods? KIB is, as far as I can tell, mainly concerned with the 13th and 15th centuries, but I would be interested in any information on the topic.)
Single leg for 13th century, joined for 2nd half 15th. Why not speak nicely to someone in Kibs and borrow a copy of the Medieval tailors assistant, that will answer your questions for now.

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:23 am
by wulfenganck
Master Jarvis wrote: 1) Split vs joined hosen: Which are correct for which periods? KIB is, as far as I can tell, mainly concerned with the 13th and 15th centuries, but I would be interested in any information on the topic.
Hi,
first it's nice to see someone starting with the will of intense research and urge for authenticity, keep on!

Now for the joined vs split hosen:
The craftsmen you took for example is from a Nuremberg illustration around ca. 1425 - 1450 IIRC. It is plausible that he wore split hosen and a very simple or old-fashioned doublet beneath his cotta; split hosen were still widespread and common amongst lower social ranking craftsmen (concerning the wealth/income, not necessarily the profession itself) and people of lower social status in genereal in the Holy Roman Empire until somewhere around the last decade of the 15th century. Peasants and poor people used them even in the early 16th century.
Now, this is german fashion and social history, there may have been a different timeframe for the change from split to joined hosen in England, but AFAIK only the italian fashion used split hosen amongst "high-class" people from the 1415s onwards.

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:03 pm
by Tuppence
For 13th century you need single legged hosen that go up to roughly the top of the leg.

For 15th century, it depends which bit of the fifteenth. Earlier the above type would still be ok. Later and conjoined are the classic thought, but there are nowhere near enough split hose worn by re-enactors. Hitch is that later in the fifteenth century the split hosen were not the same as earlier ones. The were basically the same in cut as conjoined hose, just without the crotch seam.
Earlier in the 15thC, the high split hose were probably around alongside the short ones, and although it's impossible to say when they were first worn, I'd guess at second quarter of the century.


NB - if you know you're definitely joining that group, talk to them, and take their advice on kit, etc. Don't just go out and buy / make stuff first - different groups have different standards, and you don't want to get something and not be able to use it.

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:36 pm
by Fox
As Tuppence says there is a difference between single point hose (14thC and earlier) and split hose (15thC).

And, of course, there are some transitional styles, sort of multi-point hose; I'm thinking of getting a pair made up for Agincourt (at Kelmarsh) next year.

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:21 pm
by Chris, yclept John Barber
Master Jarvis wrote:hope to join my local group (Knights In Battle in Sheffield) when I turn 16 (as before this I would have to pressgang a parent into joining with me, which is extremely unlikely to happen).
...)
You do need to be accompanied by a responsible adult whenever you're at one of our practices or events (not necessarily a parent - have you thought of asking around amongst uncles, aunts, parents' friends etc?), but we'd be happy to see you if you drop in occasionally for advice, and it might be easier to persuade an Aged Parent to just bring you in for an hour of consultation now and then than getting them to commit to full membership.

Let us know in advance (PM me or Colin Middleton) and we'll try to check whether our woodworkers will be there that week. Little Peter and his Dad have a pole lathe they've brought to events, Rob is also very knowledgeable about it.

Advice: don't buy any clothing this year, as you haven't stopped growing yet and might not get to wear it before you can start re-enacting.

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:05 pm
by Colin Middleton
I'll echo what Chris just said, come and talk to us. If you're turning 16 in a couple of weeks, it's not too much to ask an 'adult' to come down with you for an hour or so. It gives you a chance to get to know us too. We can offer help and advice on making and fitting clothing appropriate to our dates (1210 and 1483/4) and what you should be spending your money on!

As Chris said, we do have woodworkers who have pole-lathes and tools, so it's worth talking to them about how they do it. Also, be aware that you may be stepping on some-one's toes if you're not careful. If there's an established pole-lather in a group and you turn up trying to do the same 'shtick' you might find some nasty conflicst break out.

Anyway, the basic point is come and get to know us before you spend any money.

See you soon.

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:01 pm
by Chris, yclept John Barber
Colin Middleton wrote:If you're turning 16 in a couple of weeks...
He's turning fifteen in two weeks - his sixteenth is still a year away.

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:40 pm
by Master Jarvis
Thanks everyone for all your replies.
As you say, I'm not going to buy any size-dependant kit yet- I'll probably grow some more and want to join first for advice from more experienced people than me.

As for stepping on toes- The whole lathe idea might not be going ahead now, as I've found an uncle who owns a modern lathe with which I can make any stuff I might need.
Even if I did start turning 'authentically', I am singularly inept at all things practical and so my produce would be a) fundamentally flawed and b) stained with my own blood. I mights still make the structure- as an excersise in 'I can do this if I want to'- but I will probably give up after the first three lost digits. There seems little danger of competition from me for anyone who can wield a chisel correctly.
Yesterday I stabbed one through my brother's hand, which was the event which triggered my lathe plan u-turn.

As for 'The medieval tailor's assistant'- well, I've put it on my birthday list.

I tried raising the subject of reenactment earlier today with my uncle and grandparents... They thought I was mad. In my family, interests are a thing to be STAMPED OUT, unless they involve rotting one's brain in front of a tv.
Yours,
Master Jarvis

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:19 pm
by Dave B
There's always the public library, you should be able to borrow the medieval tailors assistant. and maybe Gerry Embleton's medieval soldier.

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:57 am
by paul atkin
Colin Middleton wrote:
As Chris said, we do have woodworkers who have pole-lathes and tools, so it's worth talking to them about how they do it. Also, be aware that you may be stepping on some-one's toes if you're not careful. If there's an established pole-lather in a group and you turn up trying to do the same 'shtick' you might find some nasty conflicst break out.



See you soon.
and i thought the idea these days was to encourage crafts?????????????

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:02 am
by Lady Willows Retinue
As just a tiny observation here, if you are still growing (& full height isn't reached officially until 27 years), the separate leggies will be more adjustable than joined - also my somewhat high mileage OH manages to split his joined hose every time & he isn't as energetic as I would hope a teanager would be.
Separate legs are easier to make, cheaper (you can use left over bits from bargain buckets in the markets), don't split, & will adjust to a bit of growth.

Keep trying on the oldies (try telling them its educational for you - they might not be scared of owning a "student")- and they might just find they enjoy themselves. Sometimes the teenagers lose interest & the captive oldies continue without them (we did - our boys stay at home these days - freedom at last!).

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:05 am
by gregory23b
Open hose (split or separate etc) are worn well into the 15thc but as Tuppence and fox say they are cut higher, there are statutes for men of the rank of labourer to not wear closed hose (joined) from about 1460 onwards. IE they are present and common enough, but it depends on what you are portraying, most of us WOTRs seem to be playing people above their intended station IMHO.

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:28 pm
by Colin Middleton
paul atkin wrote:and i thought the idea these days was to encourage crafts?????????????
I'm all for the idea of encouraging crafts, but I don't want the lad to turn up and find that half the group close ranks against him because he's trying to take over one of the member's roles. We've lost members before where some-one has carelessly expanded into 'their' area and they've left as they feel that they've nothing to do. I can't imagine how demoralising it would be to make a pole lathe and then turn up and be told "you can't use that, he's our wood turner".

I will however admit that I did phrase that badly (again). Sorry Master Jarvis.

The point I was trying to get across was to come and talk to us about the role before investing in it. You might even find that you get invited for a pole turning class!

Best Wishes.

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:34 pm
by Colin Middleton
Chris, yclept John Barber wrote:He's turning fifteen in two weeks - his sixteenth is still a year away.
That'll teach me to try and skim read! :doh:

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:58 pm
by Master Jarvis
Hi again everyone and thanks for the posts.
I definately don't want to cause friction by stepping on toes (and especially not between myself and someone armed with a chisel and, presumably, accessto a broadswoard), and anyway I'm reconsidering my aptitude for woodworking since the chisel incident- see post above. (By the way, this was an accident.)
I totally hadn't thought of this, but I can see how it could be *difficult* if there were two pole-turners glaring at each other from across the camp- and almost anyone else would be better suited to the job than me.
I'm definately going to come to some meetings before I invest anything, but this is probably going to be when I start going for real- whenever I introduce the 'why dont you take me to a KIB practice,for just a single session?' issue they start singing, loudly. I'm beginning to think that they don't share my interest.

Oh for freedom.
Yours,
Master Jarvis

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:54 pm
by paul atkin
master jarvis if you have an interest in pole lathe turning start here http://www.bodgers.org.uk/index.php
a whole load of knowledge and folks that will help, just go to the ask and answer forum

Re: A few questions.

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:13 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
Heeney from the Woodvilles does some wood turning at events (he has also made a wonderful savernola style chair for my wife).