History, there's quite a lot of it.

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zauberdachs
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History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby zauberdachs » Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:08 pm

Isn't it funny how the more you read on history the more you keep finding things that surprise you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury_cathedral_clock

Entirely my own ignorance but I had no idea they were making mechanical clocks in the 13th and 14th centuries.

What has surprised you recently?


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Fox » Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:24 pm

I only recently (that last year or so) discovered that for about 50 years (basically the second half of the 15thC) coifs go out of fashion for men and are only worn by older gentleman and professionals (doctors/lawyers) who might wish to look steady/traditional.

For years, everyone had been saying you must wear a hat or a coif for WotR and it turns out not be true.
In illustrations: no coifs, and while most people seem to have a hat, they've often taken them off, say, for working.

Before that: coifs. After that: coifs. In the middle: zip.

How curious.



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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby craig1459 » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:15 pm

zauberdachs wrote:Entirely my own ignorance but I had no idea they were making mechanical clocks in the 13th and 14th centuries.
What has surprised you recently?

It surprised me even more that the Greeks were at it too - 1500 years earlier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

Scandinavian 15th century artwork shows Scottish Widows cloaks with nice embroidered edges, and there are extant C15 drinking horns in the Stockholm Museum. Wang? No, my name is Sven ]:)


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby gregory23b » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:01 pm

"I only recently (that last year or so) discovered that for about 50 years (basically the second half of the 15thC) coifs go out of fashion for men and are only worn by older gentleman and professionals (doctors/lawyers) who might wish to look steady/traditional."

Despite it being brought up a number of times in this very forum?

Ask Craig and Woodhouse re previous conversations.

The coif is a bad hangover from the old days where in our ignorance we all wore them, but despite pretty secure findings that they are almost not present people are not either bothered or are stuck with 'earlier' knowledge.

Such is the way of it, I shall carry on wearing my hessian covered trainers until someone says they didn't do that :mooning: (ooh I like that one)


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:16 pm

I fecking hate coifs me.


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby British » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:15 pm

Not so much what I've learned, but what I find so utterly disgusting...
Just got back from York. We went through the Minster. I swear I could spend a week in there and still not see everything. But apart from the beauty and history and craftsmanship. Apart from the love and sweat and toil there is also some snotty nosed **** who has to etch a name into the stone and wood!
The mindless stupidity!
Why? Why the hell do they do it?
It's like litter. I hate it!



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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Captayne Mandylyon » Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:49 am

Yeah, but if it's C18th scratchings, it's history! :-)



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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Tuppence » Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:22 pm

Happens quite a lot - things appear then go away for a while, then re-appear. Beards - long hair (for men) - hoops on tunic sleeves - silly shaped sleeves - coifs - pleated coats - bustles.

One of the reasons costume research isn't as simple as some people think.

Oh, and then chuck in geographical variations, and it all gets confusing.


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Fox » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:34 pm

gregory23b wrote:Despite it being brought up a number of times in this very forum?

That would be where I learnt from; from you, in fact.
If you weren't getting a bit forgetful in your old age you'd remember.



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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby gregory23b » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:55 pm

Who are you again? eh? Nurse!!!!


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Medicus Matt » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:41 am

British wrote:Apart from the love and sweat and toil there is also some snotty nosed **** who has to etch a name into the stone and wood!
The mindless stupidity!
Why? Why the hell do they do it?
It's like litter. I hate it!


But in 500 years someone will get paid to record and index it.
I did that as a summer job at Winchester Cathedral in 1990. Everything from names scratched into the choir stalls by board choristers (including Adrian Batten, future choirmaster of Westminster Abbey in the early 17th century) to bald-faced insults aimed at Bishop Copper.
There's also some regimental graffiti dotted around the place.

When does it stop being seen as mindless vandalism and start being seen as valued historical record?


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby zauberdachs » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:43 am

craig1459 wrote:It surprised me even more that the Greeks were at it too - 1500 years earlier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism


That's amazing and exactly what I was getting at. I'm surprised by it but wonder why I should be. Considering that people in the past were every bit as intelligent as we are today and considering that they often had many generations of accumulated knowledge to draw from, it's shouldn't be that surprising.


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:01 pm

Tuppence wrote:Happens quite a lot - things appear then go away for a while, then re-appear. Beards - long hair (for men) - hoops on tunic sleeves - silly shaped sleeves - coifs - pleated coats - bustles.

One of the reasons costume research isn't as simple as some people think.

Oh, and then chuck in geographical variations, and it all gets confusing.


I wonder if you ever get an effect where fashion spreads from one point to another (say French fashions being popular in Ireland because they were adopted by the English :crazy: ), and the fashion comes and goes and returns in one place before it has faded in another?


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby zauberdachs » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:14 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:I wonder if you ever get an effect where fashion spreads from one point to another (say French fashions being popular in Ireland because they were adopted by the English :crazy: ), and the fashion comes and goes and returns in one place before it has faded in another?


A bit like diseases?


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:25 pm

zauberdachs wrote:A bit like diseases?


I like that concept! :twisted:


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby zauberdachs » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:47 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:
zauberdachs wrote:A bit like diseases?


I like that concept! :twisted:

:D


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Black Pear » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:59 pm

are white shell suits and trainers with undone laces a disease?



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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby zauberdachs » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:28 pm

Black Pear wrote:are white shell suits and trainers with undone laces a disease?


Are the socks pulled over the trousers?


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby RottenCad » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:45 pm

I did actually see and inspect the mechanical clock at Salisbury last month - and it's a very Heath-Robinson affair! It tolls a bell, rather than moving hands on a face.

What has surprised me recently is the way buttons seem to have gone into, out of, and back into fashion in the late c13...

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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Black Pear » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:15 pm

Zauberdachs, yes, that is a particularly virulent and nasty strain of the disease!

On topic (although off period), I am always surprised by photographs of 19thC people, especially the poor. I think it is because we are used to TV/film versions, all dolled up for "Hollywood"



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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:29 pm

Not so much what I learnt as I have had to learn everything about the period I now re-enact as I knew next to nothing about it (unlike the Romans, the ECW and the ACW which I had covered at school) but I frequentally get asked if it was possible for clothes to be as bright as they are as Hollywood/TV generally has portrayed people in the middle ages as being dressed in gruby, dowdy tat.


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Phil the Grips » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:40 pm



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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Black Pear » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:57 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:...I frequentally get asked if it was possible for clothes to be as bright as they are as Hollywood/TV generally has portrayed people in the middle ages as being dressed in gruby, dowdy tat.

Good point! Although I think some reenactors do misrepresent the incidence of bright or strongly dyed clothes.



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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Pelican » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:58 pm

Black Pear wrote:
Marcus Woodhouse wrote:...I frequentally get asked if it was possible for clothes to be as bright as they are as Hollywood/TV generally has portrayed people in the middle ages as being dressed in gruby, dowdy tat.

Good point! Although I think some reenactors do misrepresent the incidence of bright or strongly dyed clothes.


A current interest of mine to see how bright the colours achieved can be using period (late 15th c) materials. My first attempt was at an event, where I took some wool dyed with madder out of the dyebath just as a lady was walking past (a member of the public). It was a considerably vibrant shade of orange, and I held it up to let the air get to it and it dulled ever so slightly if you watched carefully. The lady stopped and asked "did they really have such bright colours as that?". Still slightly dumbfounded the experiment had gone so well I looked at the dyebath, looked at the wool, then back at her... "apparently so!" and quickly launched into the dyeing process and the usefulness of a pot of stale urine. I think the presence of previously wee soaked wool in my hands went beyond her level of "good taste".

So that's my thing that I've learnt, it's not as difficult or expensive as I thought to create brightly coloured cloth. How long it would stay bright is the next experiment.


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby The Iron Dwarf » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:41 pm

I did think a bit about the bright colours at some of the events I have been too but having seen the range of bright colours from natural dyes on display I would now be more inclined to ask about which colours were easy and or cheap and which are difficult and or expensive rather than the brightness.
I know of madder and woad for red and blue, am not too sure about some other colours


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Pelican » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:58 pm

I've yet to find evidence that they actually did this but just a few onion skins will produce very bright shades of yellow. Lincoln greens etc were done by using woad and weld over the top, but there are several people on these forums more expert than me!


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Black Pear » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:23 pm

Pelican, how long, and Iron Dwarf, how easy it was to do and how cheap (in period terms) are all the questions I really was getting at I think. I know natural dyes can be really bright, but it is the colourfastness that seems a bit out of place, that's all. Too much black about for me, too!



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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby The Iron Dwarf » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:24 pm

a good black I think is a rich persons colour as has been discussed earlier on other threads


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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby the real lord duvet » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:30 pm

The Iron Dwarf wrote:a good black I think is a rich persons colour as has been discussed earlier on other threads



ah the days when rich people could own a good black?



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Re: History, there's quite a lot of it.

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:38 pm

:roll:


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