Help / advice please!

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balchder
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Help / advice please!

Postby balchder » Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:53 pm

I'm after a bit of help / advice if anyone is able. I'm trying to find out some details on the type of armour that would have been worn in and around 1400. I am particulary interested in what people in Wales would have worn, especially the helmets. Any info / links / pictures gratefully recieved



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Postby WorkMonkey » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:28 pm

Sheep skin I'd imagine, with boiled leeks stitched horizontally across for added strength. On your head, a sauce pan, or a novelty hat.


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Marcus Woodhouse
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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:34 pm

Apart from the fetching ensemble above, and acknowledging that this is not an area I am over confident in or a period I have studied as well as the late 15th century two things.
First there are lots of references among those fighting in France and those fighting the Welsh that they are naked (as in not wearing armour but also not wearing much else either beyond hose shirt and a BIG knife).
Secondly in terms of the arms and armour of the landed classes (knights, esquires, nobles etc) there tends to be little if any difference between what is worn in Wales and England, and France, and Austria and so on.
Happy to be informed of any mistake(s) I' ve made there.


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Postby Fox » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:47 pm

My understanding pretty much matches Marcus'.

First, there is very little difference between English and Welsh troops fighting in the 100 years war.

The one exception is, as Marcus says, a disposition among the more ordinary troops for a very long knife.
I've read that they wore this behind them, so it looked like a tail, and that French children were frightened with stories of the Welsh devils coming to get them if they weren't good. I don't have the primary source for that, but it's a nice story [I'm moderately sure I read it in Desmond Seward's 100 year's war book, but I'd have to check].

For the armoured man, you're probably looking at a mix of chain and plate. It's still very much a cross over period. There is some impressively advanced looking bits of plate (sliding rivet joints and so on), but also a lot of pretty basic stuff. Helmets for the same sort of person are mostly bascinets, of one sort or another.

What sort of person are you looking at?



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Postby Hobbitstomper » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:48 pm

What about Spanish mercenaries in Wales? Would they have worn big floppy hats or the more local sheep based headgear?



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Postby behanner » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:09 pm

That is the period of the revolt of Owain Glyndower. Most of the Welsh captains of the revolt had served in English forces in the previous decades along with units recruited from Wales. So basically like the English but if you research the revolt you might find more specifics.

The group that really looked odd on the HYW battlefield was the Irish.



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:56 pm

Roight no one says a bloody ting.


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Postby Cat » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:21 pm

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At Marcus.

To the OP, there is also a lovely cartoon of circa 1420 on the edge of a manuscript showing a Welsh archer with only one shoe on. Having the opportunity to experiment practically one Hastings (2000?) when the mud at the bottom of Senlac Ridge ate my right boot, I ca report that the bare tootsie gets blumming cold, but does give extra stability cos you can dig yer toes in.


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glyndwr 50
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HELP /ADVICE PLEASE.

Postby glyndwr 50 » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:36 pm

If you are looking for the type of armour worn in the Glyndwr wars against the English .Then you have entered into a wide spectrum .Living in wales in the 14th century was in no way a good live if you were welsh .The english had put many harsh laws in place to govern the welsh people .Many of the wealthy welsh lords or there retainers were to say the least well off ,but as for the normal man in the street ,that was a totally diffrent matter .When the welsh finally took up arms against the unjust king henry 1V ,under the banner of Owain Glyndwr ,many welshmen came back to wales to join his rebel army ,from all over England .The rebels were made up of all walks of life ,not all of them were fighting men .But fight they did with what ever tools or weapons the could manage to find .as for armour ,very few fighting men had such luxuries.swords were not that common and most of the weapons that were used were either old or had been fashoned out of working tools .As the various battles took place then the armour and swords became more avalable.Remember I am talking about the wars of Owain Glyndwr and men involved in them at this time ,not the men that went to france an forght for the Black Prince .These rebels were common folk with no liking for the English or there laws .At the start of the war most of Glyndwr's followers were poorly armed but had nothing to loose in there struggle against the English rule .Better to die trying to make your country free ,that suffer the unjust rules of the tyrant king Henry 1V and his lords .Remember what was said of the welsh . " What care we of these bare footed rascals . Point made I think . Cry God For Glyndwr " RHYDDID.


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glyndwr 50
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Help /Advice please!

Postby glyndwr 50 » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:01 pm

And I thought this may be of some use to CAT .When Henry V asked for support from the Archers of Wales .They all assembled at Tre Tower Court a castle near Abergavenny .Once assembled they marched to the south coast to get ships to go to france ,they carried everything on ther back they did not ride or get a lift on carts or the like ,and the roads ( if you can call them roads ) were nothing more than cart tracks ,muddy covered in stones and such like .Through all kinds of weather ,its no wonder that by the time the poor archers got to france they had very little footwear left .Its no wonder that sickness was common place ,and many died on the march there and back .


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Postby Black Pear » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:54 pm

didn't Glyndwr come to Worcester and have a sit on a hill for a few days before going home again?



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behanner
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Postby behanner » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:42 pm

glyndwr, RR Davies in his _The Revolt of Owain GlynDwr_ shows that most of what you said in your first post isn't accruate, you should read it. How all sorts of different thing fit together in it is fascinating.

Cat I'd love to see that image if you can find it.



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glyndwr 50
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Help /Advice Please .

Postby glyndwr 50 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:21 pm

Thats a very sweeping statement ,Not Accurate . So the history books have got it all wrong ,and living under Henry 1V was a really nice time for the welsh .Think again ,the laws laid down by the English on the welsh people were very harsh .And if every thing was so good in wales ,why o why did the rebellion gather so much support ,.Henry 1V even let Edmund Mortimer stay captured by Glyndwr.and would not pay the ranson ask for his safe return .The reason why no ransom was paid was that Edmund Mortimer had a stronger claim to the English throne .What a really nice king Sod U jack I'm ok ..If he did this to his own kind ,what chance were the welsh people going to have .Just because some one writes a book does not meen that its written in stone,a lot of what was written in the rebellion wars of Glyndwr was written by the English .It a bit like the bad press the viking got by the monks .labelling them heathen savages ,but its only in the last 100 years that we have found out that this was not compleatly true ,and only a small amount were actually as the monks stated .One reason for this was because that was the only side the monks saw .


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glyndwr 50
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help / advice please.

Postby glyndwr 50 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:24 pm

And further reading of the PENAL LAWS applied to the welsh people in 1402 ,as laid down by the English .There were many laws ,here are the one's that will be of interest .
Englishmen shall not be convicted by welshmen in wales .

Welshmen shall not be armed,or bear defensible armour

No armour or weapons shall be brought into wales unless by the kings order

No assembly or council shall be allowed to take place by any welshman in wales

No welshman shall have or hold a castle or fortified dwelling unless used at the time of King Edward

No welshman shall bear office .


As you can see very unfair laws as laid down by King Henry 1V .So as I stated weapons in this period were very few and hard to get ..


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behanner
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Re: Help /Advice Please .

Postby behanner » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:44 am

glyndwr 50 wrote:. So the history books have got it all wrong ,and living under Henry 1V was a really nice time for the welsh .


I'm pretty sure when I just pulled Davies book off my shelf that it is an actual book and that it is history, lists sorces and everything.
Pretty much everyone was relovting after the Revolt of 1399. If the Tripartite Indenture is real then there was a concerted plan to divide England and Wales in to three parts once Henry IV had been disposed of.
Either way 1402 when the laws are passed is after the revolt started. Typically this is what you find with a revolt.

Since you obviously have an interest in this subject either buy this book or get it from a library or something. The revolt is extremely fascinating but is much more complex then you think. Evans book which I believe can be found online on Wales and the Wars of the Roses is very interesting too although quite old. Also the section on Arthurian mythology in _Arthurian Myths and Alchemy The Kingship of Edward IV._ by Jonathan Hughes ties in extremely well with Davies book on the Revolt. The idea of a Welsh prince taking back Britain is hugely important in the 15th century and is actually heavily tied to Edward IV, being the Earl of March and descendant of the Mortimers who married into Welsh royalty I believe way back in the 13th century.




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