Religious Question - Knots on rope belts

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guthrie
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Re: Religious Question - Knots on rope belts

Post by guthrie »

I have a British library card. All your books are belong to me.
Thanks very much, that gives me a good jumping off point. Anything you'd be interested in when I'm looking at it?

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Bobfrance
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Re: Religious Question - Knots on rope belts

Post by Bobfrance »

Now getting totally confused reading the posts - but that's not too difficult with me!

Can someone assist with the type of rope used around their girth

I have two other questions but maybe I should start another thread?

Has anyone detail of sandals for friars and what did friars use to carry artefacts around bearing in mind their mendicant ways was it a scrip bag?

Thanks

Bob

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Brother Ranulf
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Re: Religious Question - Knots on rope belts

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Always happy to revive an old thread. As far as I know there are no surviving examples of medieval friars' belts or sandals so we can only rely on the illustrations such as those at the start of this thread. Look carefully at the friar's sandals in the second picture and you can make out a flat sole, a fixed strap over the foot and a wide section around the heel with what would have to be a toggled or tied strap around the front of the instep. All of this would be of leather, very simply made and almost certainly without metal buckles to keep the costs down.

Linen is the most likely material for the cord belt; although the three symbolic knots have been emphasised, there would obviously be another knot where the belt is tied around the waist and perhaps another at the extreme end, which is normally fringed by leaving a short section un-corded - this knot prevents the entire belt from unravelling.

As for friars carrying "artefacts" I am not sure what you have in mind. They were forbidden possessions (Poverty, chastity, obedience) and normally based in a friary complex, so there would be little need to carry much around with them. Donations of bread, fruit and other foodstuffs might be carried in baskets or perhaps in the kind of shoulder-bag you mentioned, but there is little or no evidence for this so it's very speculative.

If you say which bits of the thread have caused confusion I will do my best to help. :wink:
Brother Ranulf

"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

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Bobfrance
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Re: Religious Question - Knots on rope belts

Post by Bobfrance »

HI Thanks for the information. I am getting conflicting view about Dominicans. One is that which you have stated about rope/linen belts the other is about having a black leather belt as Domincans were although mendicant fairly weealthy order towards late 15thC. Are both correct?

Bob

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Brother Ranulf
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Re: Religious Question - Knots on rope belts

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The Dominicans are a special case, in that they consisted of more than one Order: there were the original Order of Friars Preachers, the Sorores Ordinis Prædicatorum (Dominican nuns), and the Tertiaries (Third Order) who are also termed "Brothers and Sisters of Penitence of St Dominic". This last group evolved in the later 13th century from civilian "hangers-on" around friary sites and they were not strictly classed as friars or nuns.

Each group had its own specific regulations and Rule - the Tertiaries were permitted a "leathern girdle" (a leather belt) which would distinguish them from the Friars. Instead of attending Holy Offices they recited Aves and Paternosters at the canonical hours, presumably using paternosters to assist in this. They wore the same white habit and black cloak as the friars.

So what you have heard is a garbled version of the facts: friars wore knotted cord belts of linen, Tertiaries wore leather belts. Both came under the umbrella of the Dominican Order.

Hope this has not added to the confusion! :)
Brother Ranulf

"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

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Bobfrance
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Re: Religious Question - Knots on rope belts

Post by Bobfrance »

Interesting two further questions

Would tertieries were Dominican habit etc.?
Where is best to do some research for the period?

Many thanks

Bob

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Brother Ranulf
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Re: Religious Question - Knots on rope belts

Post by Brother Ranulf »

Would tertieries wear Dominican habit etc.?
See the end of paragraph 2 in my last post.
Where is best to do some research for the period?
I am not qualified to answer that since I have done very little research beyond the 12th century. With any of the medieval Orders, the Catholic Encycopedia at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/ is a good place to start since it has access to Catholic records at the Vatican going back to well before the 12th century. I know that some 15th century Dominicans in Italy were recorded by artists of the time; if you can find a copy of Janet Mayo's book (now out of print) "A History of Ecclesiastical Dress" [Batsford Press 1984] there is some useful (but sometimes contradictory) information there; this guide from Lambeth Palace suggests the kind of sources you might consider - http://www.lambethpalacelibrary.org/fil ... _Dress.pdf
Brother Ranulf

"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

guthrie
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Re: Religious Question - Knots on rope belts

Post by guthrie »

Bobfrance wrote:Interesting two further questions

Would tertieries were Dominican habit etc.?
Where is best to do some research for the period?

Many thanks

Bob
If you can get to the National galleries at Trafalgar square in London, they have lots of paintings from the 14/15 centuries showing various monks, friars and nuns. I spent a bit of time looking at Dominicans in the paintings, there is enough detail for them to be useful.

If you want actual history of the period the internet has many books on it, try and find some good ones. I havn't located one about the Dominicans yet, nor about high to late medieval belief, but have enough other books covering bits and pieces to cobble some knowledge together. As always, books are probably more reliable than the internet, and the catholic churche's beliefs have change somewhat since the medieval time so modern catholicism is not always applicable.

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