Fletching in an authentic setting- a query

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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:47 pm

"I would just appreciate your acceptance of the fact that I don't attempt to dupe customers."

They are your words not mine.

My point was and stays with the jigs.

You accept that the jigs so far are made up, so if they are reenactorisms as you seem to make pains to explain to your buyers why bother making a historified one? because the implication, like it or not is that they will be used in a LH or other historical setting. See John's point also.

As a maker and trader we are in strong positions, like it or not what we sell by implication has some form of authenticity (in the real sense of the word not reenactment) attached to it. I fully accept that what the customer does with their product is really up to them, anyone who knows me and has asked about my products' suitability for certain periods and they get a direct answer to the best of my knowledge with a nudge in the right direction. A case in point was some woodcuts for a 13thc setting, basically a no no, no sale, but a clear conscience.

John pretty much summed up the rest, your comments re your ex's or yours are what triggered my response and you can see it is not just me that sees it that way.

Even you accept it

" (I don't like it much as it does imply that we are trying to get away with it.) "

"Selling in good faith,.."

Do you agree or disagree that we are selling in good faith?


"sliding a plausible item under the radar of the unwitting...."

Believe it or not it happens, all the time.


"falling back on caveat emptor,"

So 'You pays your money and takes your choice" is not the same?


"suggesting a bit more honesty...."

You will see that it was a general point and my experiences of such things had not been with you, so it has to be seen as a general point.

"So those would be the places I feel accused of stuff. "

If I had wanted to accuse you, I surely would have, as I have not you have no need to take umbrage, unless you don't think a debate about the veracity of an item is worth having or not, I do. You will note that I am not saying we should not be using them so much as doing some leg work and hey presto we might have yet another verified item for sale on the market, ie a positive outlook rather than a negative one. I have not set out to cause offence, so please accept my apologies if you have felt so.


All I can say is ask Phil the Grips about St Michael's wings.

I can't possibly comment on your other products, bear in mind that you have placed a lot of inference on my comment as if it somehow relates to your other stuff, it doesn't.


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Re: Fleching in a Authentic setting

Postby John Waller » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:57 pm

RottenCad wrote:
Laminated longbow I think is a red herring, as I'm pretty sure not all LBs were hewn from one piece of yew. Unless it's made from bamboo and hickory? (As my father's pride and joy is, I'm not being sarky - it's lovely).

Thanks,

Cad


I would be interested to see any evidence for anything other than self long bows in the medieval period. I'm unaware of any evidence to suggest LBs were laminated, joined in the handle or anything other than made from a single stave. I'm OK with people using laminated bows on the field providing they approximate to the appearence of a medieval longbow ie. avoid coloured laminates like purple heart and no handle bindings. Such bows are a compromise fake in the same way as a blunt EN45 sword is.

No excuse for WWII helmets though.


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Postby gregory23b » Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:14 pm

"No excuse for WWII helmets though."

Careful, it is only a hobby :twisted:


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fletching in an authentic setting

Postby glyndwr 50 » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:06 pm

I cry Craven you win .


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Postby Medicus Matt » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:11 pm

This is why I'd like all the bluebell glue stuff cut and moved elsewhere...it's vaguely interesting and I'd like to find it again someday.

:roll:


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Postby gregory23b » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:38 pm

It's not about the winning, but the taking part. Winning is so 1980s.

Matt, ask for it to be put in this one.

http://livinghistory.co.uk/forums/viewt ... 11&start=0


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Postby Medicus Matt » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:41 pm

Good plan matey, I'll c+p it into one post on Monday.


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Postby John Waller » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:45 pm

[quote="gregory23b, like it or not is that they will be used in a LH or other historical setting. [/quote]

Indeed. I saw two of this type of jig on display the LH camp at Kelmarsh. I wish now I'd asked the people using them what they were.


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fletching in an auithentic setting

Postby glyndwr 50 » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:58 pm

So whats the score now ?.I take it from all the repilies that the leather jig ,is no longer a saleable item ,and not to be used in a a living history setting . And all traders must pass a history test on all period items thats sold on there stalls .Won't be long before we have a scrutineer to check out all reenactors before they take to the field . all I have to say is RHYDDID .


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Postby gregory23b » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:10 pm

No score at all.

It has been a discussion, you have taken it upon yourself to be the self-appointed martyr, by all means be welcome to that.

People can sell and use what they like, as this is a Living History forum and invites contributions from all sides, including you, then that is what happens.

I know that in my group:

ARP hats
desert boots

etc are not allowed.

If I want to use such things then I use them in another group, that is the real choice.

What this discussion has been about and that has evidently passed you by, much like the last 20 yrs in reenactment it would seem, is about veracity of a particular item, see OP. In a roundabout way and maybe in a heated way we have attempted to offer some information or at least raise questions, which is where we are now.

If you do not see anything of interest in this thread, fine by me, but then you seem to be reacting to something as if you have been told to sort yourself out, I assure you, you have not been. So please add to the argument or discussion rather than beat your breast in woe, it is not constructive.

By all means answer people's, not just mine, observations re your view on ARP hats and evidence based reasoning, because you evidently have a view and it has raised people's curiosity. I have answered as best as I can to the questions raised at me, you could extend the same courtesy, something about pots and getting off them comes to mind.

"Won't be long before we have a scrutineer to check out all reenactors before they take to the field"

What period do you do? I ask because scrutiny happens at a lot of events, Hastings 06 to name but one, namely in:

1 - accepted level of kit for the period, note I did not use the words 100% authentic.
2 - weapon suitability
3 - weapon safety

not to mention assurances of experience in fighting etc.

If you do any post 17th era military you will be really under the spotlight for historical inaccuracies, you wont get away with much in Napoleonics, WW1 or WW2 as there is a huge amount of information so as not to allow people to get away with wearing or using any old item.

So you are behind the times, again, scrutineering does happen.

But we are not, repeat not, repeat not, talking about reenactment events per se, but how we research or not items that elude us. You have flogged that horse to death now and can we stick to the subject.
Last edited by gregory23b on Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: fletching in an auithentic setting

Postby Thomas Hayman » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:11 pm

glyndwr 50 wrote:So whats the score now ?.I take it from all the repilies that the leather jig ,is no longer a saleable item ,and not to be used in a a living history setting . And all traders must pass a history test on all period items thats sold on there stalls .Won't be long before we have a scrutineer to check out all reenactors before they take to the field . all I have to say is RHYDDID .



Nothing like taking it to the extreme is there??

All has been said is to simply apply a bit of thought into purchases and equipment used.

Obviously modern tat is clearly not acceptable. full stop.

I remember why i stopped taking part in discussions on this board now.


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fletchng in an authentic setting

Postby glyndwr 50 » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:24 pm

I say this ,if there are reenactors out there that rely on the traders to sell them equipment ,then its down to the person who is in charge of what ever group they are in to either go with them or get advice from someone in the know .The buck stops there ,if reenactors are not dressed as they should be then blame the people in charge of them.End of story .Keep up the good work traders ,without you we would or could not do or hobby .And it is a hobby ,lets not forget that .A HOBBY nothing more .


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Postby gregory23b » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:37 pm

Now we agree on something, but that was not the subject of the thread, but how we find out or gauge the plausibility of an item.

What you said there though is spot on, actual levels of authenticity* are the preserve of the group, you will find me in total agreement, more times than I can mention have loads of us warned prospective new members to keep their purses shut until they have agreed standards from their group heads.


*whatever it is and they are.

"A HOBBY nothing more ."

Well to some it is not a hobby, to many traders (not me as it happens) it is a livelihood or supplement to one, so the emphasis is different, as I have said before the end user is somewhat unimportant until we know what they want item x for. Which is why for some of us the issue is touchy and understandably so, I do know where Lucy is coming from as it happens, been there, still do from time to time.


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Postby lucy the tudor » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:29 pm

gregory23b wrote:"I would just appreciate your acceptance of the fact that I don't attempt to dupe customers."

They are your words not mine.

"falling back on caveat emptor,"

So 'You pays your money and takes your choice" is not the same?

"suggesting a bit more honesty...."

You will see that it was a general point and my experiences of such things had not been with you, so it has to be seen as a general point.

"So those would be the places I feel accused of stuff. "

If I had wanted to accuse you, I surely would have, as I have not you have no need to take umbrage, unless you don't think a debate about the veracity of an item is worth having or not, I do. You will note that I am not saying we should not be using them so much as doing some leg work and hey presto we might have yet another verified item for sale on the market, ie a positive outlook rather than a negative one. I have not set out to cause offence, so please accept my apologies if you have felt so.

I can't possibly comment on your other products, bear in mind that you have placed a lot of inference on my comment as if it somehow relates to your other stuff, it doesn't.



You know, I have thought about this too much now, and my mind is fuddled, but I still think
"you pays your money and you takes your choice" is different to "caveat emptor"

I only got a B in O level latin, and that was a long time ago, but I thought "buyer beware" was a way of meaning that the trader was not being honest about their goods, and it was up to the buyer to spot what was wrong.
I thought " you pays your money and you takes your choice" meant you knew what you were buying and you bought according to your own will, ie the trader was not being dishonest or unreliable.

I accept your apology fully, and am happy that no offense was meant. It is my living we are talking about here, so maybe I have been a little sensitive.

I am very interested in authenticity, and research, and work hard at getting things as accurate as I can in a practical sense. I also do explain that sometimes - as in the case of my looms, they are a compromise ie. a box loom with the sides taken off, and made a lot stronger so it is easier to see what the person weaving is doing, and for more than one person to use it at once for demonstration and education purposes, and so it will withstand frequent car journeys to events without needing to be treated with kid gloves.
I also sell leather fridge magnets, pyrographed with daft jokes - some supplied by forum members ( bless them) . And I don't think you would object to that,as they are not purporting to be anything they are not.

I am seriously considering whether to stop selling the jigs to reenactors, but only to modern archery folk , I take your point that they do me no favors regarding credibility- I was not selling them on the stand at shows for that very reason.

I am glad the honesty comment was general- "Matilda " being one of my all time favorite poems.

I am happy to leave this now, all friends, and get on to being fascinated about the continuing bluebell glue thing, which looks like it may be going somewhere, at least in a Tudor content.

I do like debate, and if anyone, ever , sees that flaming woodcut with a jig on it PLEASE record when and where etc so we can all check it out, if anyone tells me they may have seen what I was wittering on about but they can't remember where just now , I may dissolve into a little puddle of disappointment.
:wink:


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Postby gregory23b » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:44 pm

No worries.

re 'pays your money and takes your choice', alludes to whatever decision you make end result is the same, hence me allying it with caveat emptor, perhaps erroneously, but point being although in reality it is always down to the end buyer ultimately, we as weirdy beardy makers and traders of the esoteric historical stuff have an added burden, mainly because word gets around and the market place is tiny enough for trade to be compromised.

Fridge magnets sound like a great idea, I will be doing xmas cards and other bits if I get my act together, so merchandising as far as I am concerned is a totally different kettle of fish. I am not saying what you should or should not sell, it is up to you, my issue is with veracity on a general level and it so happens this thread was centred around putative fletching jigs, I am sure if credible evidence appeared then you would be hard pressed to keep up with demand.


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Postby lucy the tudor » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:55 pm

:D


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Re: Fleching in a Authentic setting

Postby RottenCad » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:51 pm

John Waller wrote:
RottenCad wrote:
Laminated longbow I think is a red herring, as I'm pretty sure not all LBs were hewn from one piece of yew. Unless it's made from bamboo and hickory? (As my father's pride and joy is, I'm not being sarky - it's lovely).

Thanks,

Cad


I would be interested to see any evidence for anything other than self long bows in the medieval period. I'm unaware of any evidence to suggest LBs were laminated, joined in the handle or anything other than made from a single stave. I'm OK with people using laminated bows on the field providing they approximate to the appearence of a medieval longbow ie. avoid coloured laminates like purple heart and no handle bindings. Such bows are a compromise fake in the same way as a blunt EN45 sword is.

No excuse for WWII helmets though.


Yes, it was my mistake; the inestimable Mr Hardy was speaking of composite bows, which were, of course, Turkish and not English, Welsh or Scottish. My only defence is a dodgy memory ...!


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Postby Jack the dodgy builder » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:35 pm

Just read this thread with some interest ,
Thought I would take it back .
Is it likely that medieval archers where fletching there arrows on the eve of the battle ? I suspect that they may well, of been carrying out repairs but that is probably all .
Fletching or arrow making was after all a well established craft with its own guilds / companies . In 1371 they with the Bowyers are sucsesfully petitioning the King to ensure that the two crafts remain seperate.
The common fine for carrying out another mans trade in the mid 1300 was £4 !! when a masters pay was 4 to 6d . (about a 12 grand fine in todays money)
So although wages (money) and tools where readily available carrying on another mans trade was not really acceptable. An interesting side point is that the Fletchers guilds where one of the earliest to admit independant women as well as widows .
We also know that arrows where ordered in large quantities, as an example the crown despite having its own fletchers at the Tower ordered in 1341 13,000 arrows "to be had from all counties in the Kingdom" thats 39 thousand feathers just for that order, provision of which was an industry in its self.
So if you need arrows to go to battle you get them from the fletchers .

Just the thought of trying to keep feathers glue etc in good order in personal kit whilst on the march is slightly daunting .
I ll keep out of the jig ?glue debate for now!!

Jack



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Postby Jack the dodgy builder » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:37 pm

Just read this thread with some interest ,
Thought I would take it back .
Is it likely that medieval archers where fletching there arrows on the eve of the battle ? I suspect that they may well, of been carrying out repairs but that is probably all .
Fletching or arrow making was after all a well established craft with its own guilds / companies . In 1371 they with the Bowyers are sucsesfully petitioning the King to ensure that the two crafts remain seperate.
The common fine for carrying out another mans trade in the mid 1300 was £4 !! when a masters pay was 4 to 6d . (about a 12 grand fine in todays money)
So although wages (money) and tools where readily available carrying on another mans trade was not really acceptable. An interesting side point is that the Fletchers guilds where one of the earliest to admit independant women as well as widows .
We also know that arrows where ordered in large quantities, as an example the crown despite having its own fletchers at the Tower ordered in 1341 13,000 arrows "to be had from all counties in the Kingdom" thats 39 thousand feathers just for that order, provision of which was an industry in its self.
So if you need arrows to go to battle you get them from the fletchers .

Just the thought of trying to keep feathers glue etc in good order in personal kit whilst on the march is slightly daunting .
I ll keep out of the jig ?glue debate for now!!

Jack



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Postby Jack the dodgy builder » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:37 pm

Just read this thread with some interest ,
Thought I would take it back .
Is it likely that medieval archers where fletching there arrows on the eve of the battle ? I suspect that they may well, of been carrying out repairs but that is probably all .
Fletching or arrow making was after all a well established craft with its own guilds / companies . In 1371 they with the Bowyers are sucsesfully petitioning the King to ensure that the two crafts remain seperate.
The common fine for carrying out another mans trade in the mid 1300 was £4 !! when a masters pay was 4 to 6d . (about a 12 grand fine in todays money)
So although wages (money) and tools where readily available carrying on another mans trade was not really acceptable. An interesting side point is that the Fletchers guilds where one of the earliest to admit independant women as well as widows .
We also know that arrows where ordered in large quantities, as an example the crown despite having its own fletchers at the Tower ordered in 1341 13,000 arrows "to be had from all counties in the Kingdom" thats 39 thousand feathers just for that order, provision of which was an industry in its self.
So if you need arrows to go to battle you get them from the Fletchers .

Just the thought of trying to keep feathers glue etc in good order in personal kit whilst on the march is slightly daunting .
I ll keep out of the jig ?glue debate for now!!

Jack



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Postby Simon Dakin » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:33 pm

Hi, my first post! - Hope it makes sense!

13,000 arrows is not 39000 feathers - you get 2 fletchings from a feather!.

I think there is a reference to a text saying that archers did repair war arrow fletchings and that old parchment was used at times.

I would have thought that all the stuff to supply a company of archers would follow in the baggage train with a fletcher so no need to carry your own feathers or glue.

I would also have thought fletchings would be applied by hand, especially the longer fletchings that would need a parabolic jig, and be tied on whilst wet.

What a good thread - much room for thought.





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Postby Jack the dodgy builder » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:24 am

Welcome to the mad house Simon,

Made sense to me .
Repairing goes well with me .

As for the feathers its not always possible in my experience to get two long fletching from every feather so I went for the worst case.



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:23 am

What is this arrow thing that you speak of?


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Postby EnglishArcher » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:43 am

Simon Dakin wrote:Hi, my first post! - Hope it makes sense!

13,000 arrows is not 39000 feathers - you get 2 fletchings from a feather!.


You can't get two 7.5" fletches out of a goose primary. It's not long enough; or symmetrical about the quill.

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Re: fletchng in an authentic setting

Postby zauberdachs » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:40 pm

glyndwr 50 wrote:And it is a hobby ,lets not forget that .A HOBBY nothing more .


Indeed. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't put any effort into it ;)


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Postby Langley » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:53 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:What is this arrow thing that you speak of?


What they used to stick down gonnes until they discovered balls Marcus...



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:10 am

Ah, before my time, omae. Bows are sooooooo 1420.


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Re: fletchng in an authentic setting

Postby Black Pear » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:05 pm

zauberdachs wrote:
glyndwr 50 wrote:And it is a hobby ,lets not forget that .A HOBBY nothing more .


Indeed. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't put any effort into it ;)


Oh yes. Well said.



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Postby Simon Dakin » Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:53 pm

Hello again. I appreciate being put right on the fearhers. :shock:

Does anyone make arrow shafts as part of their show? What tools do you use and how sucessful are you?



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Postby Simon Dakin » Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:54 pm

Hello again. I appreciate being put right on the fearhers.

Does anyone make arrow shafts as part of their show? What tools do you use and how sucessful are you?




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