Fletching in an authentic setting- a query

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Sue Green
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Postby Sue Green » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:43 pm

There is a valid use for the sale and purchase of a jig - to make arrows at home. If Lucy's customers were buying for this reason then there is no harm in it at all.

However if there is no evidence for their use then I personally would be against them being used in front of the public during any living history display.



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Re: Fletching in an authentic setting .

Postby Tomsk » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:46 am

John Waller wrote:
glyndwr 50 wrote:The average Archer in the medieval period would have fletched his own arrows ..


Any evidence for this? Manufacture was regulated by the guilds. Given that every man of the 'archer class' had to practise and have a bow and arrows to do so, I don't think the guilds would be impressed if everyone was into diy.


Doesnt the surname "fletcher" derive from someone who who did the fletchings in a professional livelyhood?


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Postby timbobarnacle » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:30 am

Lucy has recently made two linstocks based directly on some of the more "ordinary" Mary Rose finds. They are in either ash and oak, machine turned, and then hand carved. It was not a case of just go to the lathe and make one. She is a member of the Mary Rose speaking group, and has seen many of the finds at the museum. Also, it took a lot of thought, research, and a fair amount of wasted expensive hardwood before a successful result on a lathe which also had to be paid for.

It is interesting that both purchasers, and those who have handled them note the weight, and that they would also be quite useful as a crude form of discipline for an unruly gun crew. It is not until these items are made and used, that such fine detail is often apparent to those who are interested in things that go bang loudly. These items are not on the website, they should be but Lucy is more of a craftsman than a IT expert- those who criticise traders should actually try making the items themselves and see how much time it takes to make hand made items.


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Postby Medicus Matt » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:08 am

gregory23b wrote: Modern jigs are used because the fletchings do not need binding, .


Are they? I thought that they were also to make sure you got your feathers set at the right angle.

Which is why I'd assumed that an experienced fletcher, medieval or otherwise, wouldn't need one.

When I do 'em, I use a glue made from bluebell bulbs. It's pasty, so it holds them in place straight away but takes a while to set...although putting them close to the fire makes it set hard in under an hour.

Not calling anyone's commitment into research or reconstruction into doubt, I just don't see the need for a jig?


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Postby CeDeBe » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:02 pm

Hi Medicus Matt

While not wanting [duck] to get caught in the [dodge] S/Storm may I zip in [drop] and ask about your [arggh] Glue recipe please?

Cheers

Boyd



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Postby Medicus Matt » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:10 pm

CeDeBe wrote:Hi Medicus Matt

While not wanting [duck] to get caught in the [dodge] S/Storm may I zip in [drop] and ask about your [arggh] Glue recipe please?

Cheers

Boyd


First thing to say is that bluebell bulbs (and, for all I know, stems, sap, flowers, any air in their general vicinity and quite possibly the colour blue itself) are very toxic.

Find English bluebells (might work with spanish ones, wouldn't know). As you'll only be using ones from your own garden (because you don't dig up wild flowers; it's naughty), this shouldn't be too difficult. My gardens heaving with the little b*stards; they grow like weeds.

Pull bluebells up and collect the bulbs. Wash the bulbs and dry them off.

Pound the bulbs in a suitable recepticle with a bit of spit (breaks down the cells a bit) that will only ever get used for this purpose. Keep going until you've got a paste.

That's it.


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Postby lucy the tudor » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:46 pm

Wow, that's really easy, and I have a lot of bluebells which are all mine and can be dug up without loss of future colour as the little cherubs fill any gap you make in them really quickly by dividing and infilling.
I shall try that glue recipe soon.
That's a good example of why this site is good, I now just need to check the provenance of your recipe, ascertain whether the purposes I wish to use it for are both practical and historically accurate, document that search in case of future query, and then I can get my trowel out :wink:


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Postby Medicus Matt » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:00 pm

That is the b**ger of it. I've seen and heard lots of people who say that it was used for bookbinding (certainly was but not sure of the period) and fletching (which, for all I know, is a re-enactorism that has now been repeated so many times that it's entered the public domain) but have never seen any primary source evidence to back it up.

So, I use it and, if anyone asks what it is, I tell them what I know.

And then try to remember to wash my hands before having my lunch.


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Postby John Waller » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:36 pm

Medicus Matt wrote:That is the b**ger of it. I've seen and heard lots of people who say that it was used for bookbinding (certainly was but not sure of the period) and fletching (which, for all I know, is a re-enactorism that has now been repeated so many times that it's entered the public domain) but have never seen any primary source evidence to back it up.

So, I use it and, if anyone asks what it is, I tell them what I know.

And then try to remember to wash my hands before having my lunch.


What you said. I've seen loads of secondary refs even one saying bluebell glue was used in the bronze age but never anything more concrete. Users say the glue is like PVA. Don't do what Ray Mears did on the telly and chew the bulbs! Apparently it has insecticide properties which is why bookbinders used it. Presumably it would also protect fletchings?

I'll stick to stuff in a tube.


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:39 pm

"Are they? I thought that they were also to make sure you got your feathers set at the right angle. "

Yes, sorry that is the most important bit, ie

they do not need binding to get it to the right angle.


Lucy, my reply was to not just you but to TD, so before you get offended at all of it, consider the responses were to the principle raised, most of mine were to TD, only a few to you.

OG
"So let me get this right .What you are saying is that because somone has found a method of doing something like the leather fletching jig .Because....If that is your point then very few reenactors can fit that criterion "

If I may, it has nothing to do with reenactors per se, it is to do with the item on sale and how it is described or sold, as I have said before the use of it to some extent is secondary, it could be merely bought for display.

"You have a Coelacanth way of looking at it"

LOL

No, I have an EVIDENCE BASED way of looking at it. I collaborate and consult with a lot of people to expand my knowledge and erase my areas of misapprehension and ignorance, far from a narrow view.

I could suppose they had steam engines to power mills because the Arabs had invented a steam machine to amuse themselves with, but I wont. I am not ever saying that we do not have theories, but when we do let them be based on some form of evidence, even if it is a bit sketchy, merely suspecting is not enough. When detectives have a suspicion they act on them and do some magical thing called RESEARCH!! not a huge concept given we are supposed to be in the HISTORY industry not the fantasy one. I use resources like the internet, books, other people with similar interests, treatises, none of which have to cost me much in money, just time, but call me old fashioned.


"So with your view in mind because such an item i never was in use in medieval times do we all have to throw them away because they are not period "

Er, sorry to appear rude, but yes, bin them. Or to put it another way what would you say to someone turning up to a 1944 event wearing a kettle hat that sort of resembled an ARP hat, and it only cost them £15, I reckon you would be laughed out of town, not to mention the group.


"Sometimes you can't get something absolutely correct .There may be many reasons for this ,Money is one of the main reasons ."

I couldn't agree more, but then I reckon, but I could be wrong, but if money were the issue, then surely hand binding is cheaper?




"So lets just say for instance that one such leather jig did come to light ,what would be your answer then ."

My answer would be as follows, or along the lines of:

"Whoo frigging hoo!, at last someone has been bothered to do some digging and find one", however, I refer you to this, ie I had already posted my answer, my bold for emphasis.

"To my mind if a maker has made a discovery or is making something based on new evidence it should be proclaimed for us to have a good think and admire on. With the case of jigs, and this has come up before then surely it is something to crow about, subject to some sort of rationale, look at is as a good marketing strategy rather than sliding a 'plausible' item under the radar of the unwitting. "

And also this, which is kind of where you seem to be coming from:

"merely making something and waiting for big red bus of validation to appear is not research. Research is looking and making the effort not simply expecting it to arrive on a plate or giving up without even starting. "


But maybe you are right,I shall simply wear WW2 battledress in the hope that a MSS find shows men to be wearing them in the middle of the 15th century, after all, it is plausible right, they had wool and buttons and thread and green dye and apparently helmets that looked like ARP or tommy hats. Ludicrous I would bet, but that seems to be the direction from which many people seem to want to look, fine by me, makes buying kit cheaper and easier, I will have a job convincing my group leader of my new found 'logic'.


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Postby lucy the tudor » Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:18 pm

I was mainly offended at the implication that I would dupe customers by claiming authenticity for the jigs, when I had clearly stated that I do not do so. If I ever find any evidence for their existence and use I will do my damnedest to make them as close to the original as I can, and will change the website, and notify all and sundry. Meanwhile I will continue to produce them only on request, and explain to those who buy them why I am not claiming them to be authentic.


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Postby lucy the tudor » Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:22 pm

And thanks Matt, I will join you in your search for primary sources then, otherwise the flower bubs can remain safe.


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Fleching in an authentic setting

Postby glyndwr 50 » Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:41 pm

Hello Gregory 23b .I was wondering how long it would be before you came back on this thread .I quite missed your comment and complaints on mine and other reenactors views.Thankyou so much for giving me and others such a glowing report .You must be the most Authentic reenacter who ever trod leather, Things are black or white ,there seems to be no grey areas.And I will have to bow down to your superior knowledge .I have ony been doing reenactments since 1969 so what do I know about it .I have taken on board all that you have said and I'm quite sure that you have made a lot of reeactors very happy .Keep up the good work ,we need people like you .Without your comments we would not be enjoying the threads so much .Your kind comments are most welcome ,and most informative ,its a real joy to read your replies .I can't wait for your next reply on some reenactors thread .


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Postby The Methley Archer » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:04 pm

I agree with G24b. Strive to to be authentic not just to look it by using cheap cop outs. I notice the difference and i've only been doing re-enactment for 3 years.

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Postby Medicus Matt » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:18 pm

Aye, without research (which I know Lucy and a lot of other traders as well as re-enactors do...I don't think that was ever really in doubt) and being able to say to MOPs "based on the best evidence we've got at the moment, this is how we think they dressed/cooked/made stuff".

Best evidence.
Not "made up stuff" because they had the materials and technology (cue "King Penda's Attack Helicopter"), evidence, even if it's just anecdotal (like with the bluebell glue. I know that it was used historically as a glue but, as yet, I've yet to find a citation for it's use earlier than the Tudor period and nothing yet about fletching. So I tell the MOPs that yes, it was a glue and that I use it because, unlike hide/skin glues it doesn't fail when it gets wet but that I can't prove that they used it for fletching yet).

Otherwise it's just dressing up.
Now't wrong with just dressing up, but it's not re-enactment. Not to me anyway.

But, like G23bs comments, it's just my opinion. Which I'm entitled to.


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:25 pm

Here we go, as you are obviously hard of thinking and not very good at sarcasm, allow me to help you along.


"I was wondering how long it would be before you came back on this thread ."

Sadly I do not hang on every word you type, I do have other things to do.

"I quite missed your comment and complaints on mine and other reenactors views."

If you find me complaining about other's views or rights to an opinion, by all means quote me, but you wont. Disagreement my dear chap is not the same as saying 'you don't have the right to have a view', plain English.

"Thankyou so much for giving me and others such a glowing report ."

I do not recall you being the subject of anything, other than my rebuttal at your absurd 'logic' regarding the ARP hats, something you do not seem to have the ability to stand by, but merely attempt a feeble 'sarcastic' rebuttal.


"You must be the most Authentic reenacter who ever trod leather, Things are black or white ,there seems to be no grey areas."

You don't know me at all, but by all means have your 'opinion', as for grey areas, my middle name is 'grey area', especially when it comes to my work, ask any one of my clients. You are confusing grey area with 'cop out', they are not and have never been the same, at least not to the majority of people with half a brain. Grey area = uncertainty, it does not equate to making things up to satisfy a belief. You seem to be unable to get it that I am all for the magic discovery and a complete turn around of all we hold dear as long as it is based on some decent hard work, but you are harping on, ad nauseum about 100% authenticity, which is a red herring and a very flammable straw man >>> wooosh.


"And I will have to bow down to your superior knowledge."
Oh really, I want to see your forehead sore from kowtowing, get to it, chop chop.


"I have ony been doing reenactments since 1969 so what do I know about it."

You will no doubt have seen many changes in how we do things over the years and promptly ignored them.


"I have taken on board all that you have said and I'm quite sure that you have made a lot of reeactors very happy.Keep up the good work ,we need people like you.Without your comments we would not be enjoying the threads so much .Your kind comments are most welcome ,and most informative ,its a real joy to read your replies .I can't wait for your next reply on some reenactors thread ."

Doesn't have enough to work on, sorry, suffice to say that I do try to be objective, as much as anyone else, as for making you happy or otherwise, that's not my concern, you can choose to:

a) engage in reasonable discourse by agreeing or disagreeing
b) ignore it as a load of old B***cks because you evidently know it all as you have been reenacting for so long and see no need to look at how we do things, let alone question them God forbid!!

As Matt says, all I have been doing is expressing my opinion, not law nor statute, you do not have to like it. You could actually use your awesome long-term reenactment experience to actually make a sensible challenge to my comments rather than see them as some sort of attack on your personal ivory tower.

The choice is yours.


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Fleching in a Authentic setting

Postby glyndwr 50 » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:15 pm

Hi G23b,Thankyou for those kind words ?.The A R P hat is my son's and his not old enough to have a proper kettle hat at this time ,but I'm sure he will understand that it has to go .By the way does this mean that my laminated longbow will have to be thrown away as well ?.


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:42 pm

Once more and finally, it is not about what kit you have nor your son, nor whether we are 100% authentic or not, but about how much or how little thought has gone into finding out about our products. Because, I reiterate the point in bold in the vain hope you will actually read and take it in the buyer may well not be a reenactor, may not want to reenact, may well be a teacher, a curator, a private collector or anything but a reenactor.

So your incessant harping on about 100% authenticity in reenactment is a way off the mark as it is a wider issue than what you get up to at weekends with your vast ARP hat collection.

I hope that clarifies things.


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Postby lucy the tudor » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:45 pm

And still Gregory, you have not answered my point that it doesn't matter who buys it if you tell them it's not an authentic and historically accurate product, you have done nothing wrong in either making or selling it. As with composite bows, modern longbows made of other materials, rubber tipped arrows et al.
If a teacher wants to buy Victorian toys and use them to teach about the Tudors, I will still have done nothing wrong if I tell them they are based on Victorian toys, not Tudor ones, I cannot follow all my products, or decide how folk use them.
Totally researched, evidenced and authentic products become incorrect if used in the wrong context- Roman armor would be wrong on the medieval battlefield.
If a museum curator chooses to use appalling poly wool cloth and velcro on a mock up of medieval life ( as in a museum in Preston) is it the fault of the person who sold them the fabric and velcro?
The buyer, if given full information can choose how they use what they buy.
I will continue to research to the best of my ability the things I sell, and do my best to be honest about them.
I would welcome your accepting this, rather than just dismissing me as having been offended by the parts that weren't aimed at me. I am assuming the bits about duping customers were, or at my fellow traders, but as I am the one responding just now, I have taken it a bit personally- I still appreciate your points, and admire your steadfast desire to improve standards, with which I mainly agree, I would just appreciate your acceptance of the fact that I don't attempt to dupe customers.
Thank you.


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Re: Fleching in an authentic setting

Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:37 pm

Lucy, I've gone over this thread several times and I cannot see where you think G23b has actually accused you of anything- let alone duping your customers. You stated in your original post that you do inform customers of the questionable nature of the jigs and you are quite right in that you cannot be held responsible for what a customer goes on to do with one of your products.

The issue as I see it ( and yes, this is MY opinion) is that such a thing is an unecessary compromise.

You want to fletch arrows at home? Fine, use a normal jig.

You want to fletch arrows at events, as part of a living history display? Then learn how to do it properly without a jig- don't just cobble together a "medievalesque" version to enable you to demonstrate modern fletching.

However, Lucy has and does make these when requested because thats business -you give the customer what they want- she tells the customer of its origins and then it's up to them what they do with it.

The problem is when the new owner fails to pass on the knowledge that this is not a period item- either because he forgets, chooses not to or the MOP doesn't ask, then someone else sees one and copies it (having done suitable research first obviously).

My bugbear is the "not been called on it yet....." which to me translates as "Yeah, I know it's wrong- but I've gotten away with it this far!"

As another example, remember the double ended glaives that Lancaster Armouries made after Star Wars Phantom Menace? I know of someone who bought one and was convinced it must be an authentic 15th century weapon because he'd bought it from a reputable dealer. He took some convincing that it had been made as a"homage" to Darth Maul's bouble-ended light saber and that even Roger Lancaster himself had given up hope of ever finding proof of one existing in period.

Not to mention that some people consider fleabay to be a reputable dealer of 15th century items :roll:.



glyndwr 50

So let me get this right .What you are saying is that because somone has found a method of doing something like the leather fletching jig .Because no evidence has come to light ,and therefor no examples of such a thing has been found or recorded,it does in your world not exist .I further more put it to you that in your world everbody who does reenacting of any period must befor they pursue this hobby must have ,or wear item's which exist or have knowledge of them existing or have seen or can document such findings to a point that they then have a right to use such items to be in period.


That is pretty much the idea, yes.
If that is your point then very few reenactors can fit that criterion.


A growing number judging from the increasing amount of searching questions on these forums and others. Part of the fun (at least for some of us) is the aim of improving what we do and display, and that means trying to do it right.

I have ony been doing reenactments since 1969 so what do I know about it.

Really, reenacting since 1969 and still convinced that "they might have had it so that's good enough for a living history display"?

JonT


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Postby lucy the tudor » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:05 am

gregory23b wrote:In all honesty I do not think making up an item and 'authenticising' it with period materials adds to our quest, it muddies the waters more and is in danger of making more myths than we need. I had thought hose days were gone with hessian wrapped trainers etc.

If we are to make things that are conjectured then at least they should be based on some sort of provenance, not retro fitting modern ideas and dressing them down to suit. That smacks of using a quill with a biro in it.

'and that if people wanted to use them in Living History scenarios, they could pay their money and take their choice.'

That strikes me as capitalising on people's ignorance, bear in mind that the buyer is not always well informed and we as makers are beholden to be scrupulously honest when selling items that are either reproductions or conjectures. The poor customer buys on trust and then will use that item to explain things to the visitors, they then in some cases have to justify something that is not provable even in the loosest sense of the word.

I do feel strongly about that kind of thing because research is where it is at, not spurious guesswork based on our modern logic.


So it would be the " capitalising on people's ignorance" "poor customer buys on trust"
things


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Postby lucy the tudor » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:29 am

gregory23b wrote:TD

'The principal duty re-enactment has to the general public, however, is to educate and entertain.'

What has selling an item got to with any of that? the item does not know the intentions of the buyer, it is (usually) an inanimate object. You make and sell an item and you as the seller are responsible for its veracity as you are selling in good faith. And since when have those two precepts been universal? are all the audiences of the items in question goggle eyed tourists or are they archeologists and professionals who want to use items they themselves cannot make? Sorry (I am not really) but all such notions are cop outs to justify poor or absent research because it is the path of least resistance.


To my mind if a maker has made a discovery or is making something based on new evidence it should be proclaimed for us to have a good think and admire on. With the case of jigs, and this has come up before then surely it is something to crow about, subject to some sort of rationale, look at is as a good marketing strategy rather than sliding a 'plausible' item under the radar of the unwitting.

I feel strongly on this because I have fallen foul of the one size fits all medieval item or 'no one has called me on it yet' and I find that not in trader's interest and certainly not in the interest of the buyer. We are and should be better than that, and before anyone thinks I am talking about everything being 'authentic' I am not, I suggesting a bit more honesty


than falling back on caveat emptor.




Selling in good faith, sliding a plausible item under the radar of the unwitting, falling back on caveat emptor, suggesting a bit more honesty.

So those would be the places I feel accused of stuff.


I have said that the phrasing of " no one has called me on it yet" etc was that of my ex, who still does the website for me because I am crap with computers. It is not my style, but his sense of humor - he does state "authentic- probably not" , (I don't like it much as it does imply that we are trying to get away with it.) but still the main emphasis would be ...
Not possibly, or we think so, but probably not.

When you say I have to take into consideration someone nicking the design and copying it, and taking it on trust having seen someone else use it in a living history setting, does this mean I am responsible for warning all the people who bought from the reputable archery supplier who had a jig for sale which was made with the same design, and materials six months after Rob made and sold his first ones at ILHF. I don't know what his research was, but it was our second big show ever, and if he just copied it, which I have no evidence he did, but if he did, then you may have a valid point- being copied is a flattering but dangerous thing.


Actually if you go back to the beginnings of this, my main point was that a friend had recently told me that he had some provenance for jigs, which surprised me, and I was hoping someone may have also seen this woodcut, and would be able to shed a little more light on it, being as how he can't immediately remember where he saw it, and has based his own jigs upon it , and apparently discussed it at length with the ex in the past, which was news to me, as he had told me he had based it on modern jigs.
I was hoping to further my research, not be accused , or accuse anyone else , of anything.

The trying to do it right thing is important to me too, which is why I don't have them on the stall now the ex has left. I don't even keep them made up at home, I do still make them if someone asks me to.
I am trying to learn, and research, and ask and listen, but I reserve the right to make something I have made before if someone wants it, and understands what they are getting.

Going to bed now.
Got to be a play leader tomorrow morning, and a Saxon Married to a Viking tomorrow afternoon, then come home and cook tea.

:?


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Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:15 am

lucy the tudor wrote:I have said that the phrasing of " no one has called me on it yet" etc was that of my ex, who still does the website for me because I am crap with computers. It is not my style, but his sense of humor - he does state "authentic- probably not" , (I don't like it much as it does imply that we are trying to get away with it.)

lucy the tudor wrote:He always said there was no provenance to jigs at all, and that it was just that it used authenty materials to a practical purpose, and that if people wanted to use them in Living History scenarios, they could pay their money and take their choice.


Those are where the comments originated from, and even you aren't happy about one of the phrases used there. Gregorys comments were responses to that kind of thinking- not you specifically.

You have taken pains to point out that you advise customers about the suitability of such items -Trollen wheels are another good example- there are unfortunately many other traders out there that aren't so bothered.

lucy the tudor wrote:When you say I have to take into consideration someone nicking the design and copying it, and taking it on trust having seen someone else use it in a living history setting, does this mean I am responsible for warning all the people who bought from the reputable archery supplier who had a jig for sale which was made with the same design, and materials six months after Rob made and sold his first ones at ILHF. I don't know what his research was, but it was our second big show ever, and if he just copied it, which I have no evidence he did, but if he did, then you may have a valid point- being copied is a flattering but dangerous thing.


No, you aren't directly responsible for what other people do with your jig but by "medievalising" a modern item -or producing something that is deliberately aimed at being a "faux" medieval item- you must accept that you have some responsibility when your creation (or copies thereof) start to multiply across the re-enactment community because some people are just too lazy to find out wether or not something is right and just go ahead and copy it because "so and so of the Parody Household has one- so it must be right."

lucy the tudor wrote:Actually if you go back to the beginnings of this, my main point was that a friend had recently told me that he had some provenance for jigs, which surprised me, and I was hoping someone may have also seen this woodcut, and would be able to shed a little more light on it, being as how he can't immediately remember where he saw it, and has based his own jigs upon it , and apparently discussed it at length with the ex in the past, which was news to me, as he had told me he had based it on modern jigs.


If that woodcut ever comes to light then I'd love to see it and I like most folk would happily accept jigs as being a period tool and have no further qualms about them. After all, that is what research is about isn't it.

Until then Glyndwr, I'll quite happily argue that they probably didn't exist in period and therefore shouldn't be used in a living history context.


JonT


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Postby Medicus Matt » Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:29 am

lucy the tudor wrote:And thanks Matt, I will join you in your search for primary sources then, otherwise the flower bubs can remain safe.


Slow morning.....

Would have made life easier if I'd thought to check what bluebells were known as in earlier centuries.... :roll: Hyacinthus Non-Scriptus was known as Wild Hyacinth or 'Commune Hyacinthus' in the 16th century and a search of herbals yields these results.

"The commune hyacinthus is muche in Englande aboot Syon and Shene and it is called Englishe crowtoes, in North partes Crawtees. Some use the rootes for glue" William Turner's Great Herbal 1548

"The root is bulbous, full of a slimie glewish juice, which will serve to set feathers upon arrowes in stead of glew, or to paste bookes with: hereof is made the best starch next unto that of Wake - robin roots" John Gerard's Great Herbal 1597

So, that's good enough evidence for Tudor types I suppose.

Turner also says that older writers called it English Jacinth...so that's the next lead to follow up.

There's a rather splendid scan of Turner's herbal here:-

http://www.rarebookroom.org/Control/turher/index.html
Last edited by Medicus Matt on Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:59 am, edited 2 times in total.


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Postby Dave B » Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:35 am

Medicus Matt wrote:Slow morning.....


Thanks for that Matt. I'll remember that one.

'We know that they used this for fletching in tudor times, and therefore guess that they may have used it in medieval times also' seems a reasonable position to take then.


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Postby Medicus Matt » Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:42 am

Dave B wrote:
Thanks for that Matt. I'll remember that one.


S'alright. Makes a change from "picking holes in everything people put on this forum".

:wink:

According to Dioscorides (with a single bound hes' back to the 1st century AD) said that if you mix the crushed bulbs with wine it hinders or keeps back the growth of hair.

I bet it bloody does.


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Postby Medicus Matt » Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:58 am

An extra bit from Turner, this time form his revised Great Herbal of 1568 (which is presumably where Gerard got his information from)

"The boyes in Northumberland scrape the roots of the herbe and glew theyr arrows and bokes with that slime that they scrape off."

I suspect that I'm going to run into a language barrier when it comes to earlier herbals. Middle English I'm alright on but middle foreign languages (Gerard cites German and Italian sources) are going to be problematic.

This is all still on topic with the original query but if someone wants to split it out into a sperate thread then do feel free.


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Postby Dave B » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:15 pm

I think you may be confusing this with a forum with organised and proactive moderation. As opposed to having moderators who only get involved if there is blood on the floor, and then only with the lowest effort of knee jerk responses.

Speaking as one of them of course.


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Postby Simon_Diment » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:44 pm

Like those awful two part chairs that seem so popular, they're a modern design that have become another re-enactorism :roll:

Laffin Jon Terris Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: Fleching in an authentic setting

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:

I have ony been doing reenactments since 1969 so what do I know about it.


Really, reenacting since 1969 and still convinced that "they might have had it so that's good enough for a living history display"?

JonT


Yep, I'd reached that conclusion too :shock:


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Re: Fleching in a Authentic setting

Postby RottenCad » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:17 pm

glyndwr 50 wrote:Hi G23b,Thankyou for those kind words ?.The A R P hat is my son's and his not old enough to have a proper kettle hat at this time ,but I'm sure he will understand that it has to go .By the way does this mean that my laminated longbow will have to be thrown away as well ?.


May I ask a couple of questions, please? And I'm trying to be helpful, rather than antagonistic. How old is your son, that he's not old enough to have a proper kettle hat? Is he still young enough (ah, those were the days) that he doesn't take to the field in battles? If he's not taking to the field, then there'd be no requirement for him to wear any kind of helm, be it ARP, BFO kettle or cardboard, would there?

Laminated longbow I think is a red herring, as I'm pretty sure not all LBs were hewn from one piece of yew. Unless it's made from bamboo and hickory? (As my father's pride and joy is, I'm not being sarky - it's lovely).

Thanks,

Cad


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