Best way to start learning to joust

Moderator: Moderators

Jason
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:38 am
Location: Oxford

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Jason » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:45 pm

Yup, though 'lively' is an understatement on occasions.

Her contact details are on www.tournamentstud.com FYI



Templar Knight
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:43 pm
Location: Solihull
Contact:

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Templar Knight » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:43 pm

Is there any point trying to joust with a modern saddle, or should I wait until I have a period saddle? I am going to build a quintain for my garden and get hold of a lance just to help build the muscle for bringing the lance to a couched position nicely and to help aiming. Planning to go down to Dominic Sewell's center for some training in medieval horsemanship and some of the other stuff he offers. Just got to save up first.


"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life."

Friesian
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Friesian » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:49 pm

Templar Knight wrote:Is there any point trying to joust with a modern saddle, or should I wait until I have a period saddle? I am going to build a quintain for my garden and get hold of a lance just to help build the muscle for bringing the lance to a couched position nicely and to help aiming. Planning to go down to Dominic Sewell's center for some training in medieval horsemanship and some of the other stuff he offers. Just got to save up first.


Hold fire with the saddle !!!!!!! If you get it wrong it will cost you dear .Take a few lessons from Dom & then start thinking about a saddle when you know which of his horses you are liable to be using - he will perhaps advise on what basic saddle your replica saddle could be built on (ie UP ,Spanish , Stock , Endurance etc ) & to what size .

Good Luck :thumbup:



Jason
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:38 am
Location: Oxford

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Jason » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:34 am

A saddle's the last thing you want to get. Riding skills first, then armour, then finally saddle and ultimately horse. If you have the riding skills you can borrow or hire the horse and saddle. The other way round is generally frowned upon...



Friesian
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Friesian » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:45 pm

Jason wrote:A saddle's the last thing you want to get. Riding skills first, then armour, then finally saddle and ultimately horse. If you have the riding skills you can borrow or hire the horse and saddle. The other way round is generally frowned upon...


Couldnt agree more ..............Sorry came late into the thread , didn't realise he was a novice rider without armour - should have had a re-visit over the whole thread before replying .

BTW on a different note have you tried out the newish semi ridgid Spanish saddle thats out ?............Just looking for feedback they're bloody expensive



Jason
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:38 am
Location: Oxford

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Jason » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:45 pm

No, not seen anything about a new Spanish saddle. Sounds interesting, how would I find out about it?



plantychrisb
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:21 pm

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby plantychrisb » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:09 pm

Have just happened on this thread, and thought I'd throw my two pennorth in.
I would imagine that all the positive threads have spurred you on and thank goodness fir that! What has been said gas all been very carefully aimed at not putting you off your path, and I hope todo thesame
The path I took many, many years ago led to me not just learning how to joust an all the other mounted skills, but gave me a knowledge of the horse, it's foibles, it's needs, it's care and the mutual respect that comes from a partnership that requires perseverence, trust, and not a little love from both parties. I could not afford ahorse when first I started, but was introduced to a man who ran a stable of jousting and stunt horses, and produced touring jousting shows throughout the land. Not the Devil's horsemen, but Geoff Winship. This man taught me the basics, including falls, but imparted much much more. I have yet to meet such a charismatic, hard taskmaster, but, oh dear me, did I learn!! Hand on heart, my life changed completely. I have never forgotten the knowledge he imparted, nor his methods of training his horses, hard, but never, ever cruel (as some would have you believe). I worked for him for atotal of nine years, giving me the most incredible memories. Geoff is still jousting age 74 Lthough now just a couple of runs, but stillshowing his amazing horsemanship. Many of today's leading stuntmenowe their careers to Geoff.
He still puts the show out onthe road and is always looking for able men to join the group, just for the odd weekend, month or whole season. so, if you want to learn without the expense ofhiring a horse, I can only suggest you perhaps tread this tested path. I vouchsafe you will not regret it!
Happy New year to you and afonicidos' everywhere!
Regards
chri

Chris



Templar Knight
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:43 pm
Location: Solihull
Contact:

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Templar Knight » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:21 pm

Friesian wrote:Couldnt agree more ..............Sorry came late into the thread , didn't realise he was a novice rider without armour - should have had a re-visit over the whole thread before replying .


I have armour, I have 2 maille harnesses and and then building my transitional harness now. But I dont have a harness for jousting or anything, saving up for it now though, its going to cost me an arm and a leg.


"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life."

Friesian
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Friesian » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:49 pm

Templar Knight wrote:
Friesian wrote:Couldnt agree more ..............Sorry came late into the thread , didn't realise he was a novice rider without armour - should have had a re-visit over the whole thread before replying .


I have armour, I have 2 maille harnesses and and then building my transitional harness now. But I dont have a harness for jousting or anything, saving up for it now though, its going to cost me an arm and a leg.


Good luck with it all :thumbup:



Templar Knight
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:43 pm
Location: Solihull
Contact:

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Templar Knight » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:57 pm

Cheers, Im so glad there is people like you on here, I wouldnt know what to do otherwise lol.
I'll keep you all posted on my progress. In march I will be doing my first tilt if everything goes to plan, so ill make sure to get a video or some pics at least.


"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life."

Friesian
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Friesian » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:59 pm

Jason wrote:No, not seen anything about a new Spanish saddle. Sounds interesting, how would I find out about it?


http://www.bettersaddles.co.uk/acatalog ... ddles.html

Bottom of the page ' Startrekk Espaniola '

Was thinking of getting one for our 4 y.o. but would really like to know what the difference is between this & the old treeless model Startreker from someone who has one before spending that sort of money



User avatar
lucy the tudor
Post Knight
Posts: 1984
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:57 am
Location: Lancashire
Contact:

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby lucy the tudor » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:51 pm

I am probably out of turn, and definitely out of touch, but I know my jumping boy changed his shape a lot from four to seven years old, and needed a new saddle, and then some serious alteration to the stuffing in that time. I would get him something a bit less costly until his muscles are all established, rather than risk getting such a beautiful and costly saddle altered in a year or so. I do know you are constantly watching the fit of a saddle, and re stuffing isn't the end of the world...
Just a bit cautious ( and jealous, I wish I were learning with you)


lucythetudor@gmail.com

a filthy, arse-grabbing strumpet, masquerading as a demure two-door lady.

Friesian
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Friesian » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:08 pm

lucy the tudor wrote:I am probably out of turn, and definitely out of touch, but I know my jumping boy changed his shape a lot from four to seven years old, and needed a new saddle, and then some serious alteration to the stuffing in that time. I would get him something a bit less costly until his muscles are all established, rather than risk getting such a beautiful and costly saddle altered in a year or so. I do know you are constantly watching the fit of a saddle, and re stuffing isn't the end of the world...
Just a bit cautious ( and jealous, I wish I were learning with you)


Hi Lucy ,presume you were talking to me ,(?) The reason we were looking at that was due to the problems we have encountered with our 7 y.o. between the ages mentioned . We used a Wintec for her everyday saddle but even though changing of gusset sizes was easy it still needed a saddler to re-flock it every time .Plus of course it was totally useless for shows .We were wondering if the above saddle would be a better long term buy as it is still adjustable by a saddler due to the semi ridgid tree (alledgedly !). It would also be easy enough to disguise in the arena .

BTW not sure still if you were talking to me as I'm not the one starting off jousting (its Templar Knight ) .......Wouldn't claim I'm not still learning though :wink:



Friesian
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Friesian » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:16 pm

Templar Knight wrote:Cheers, Im so glad there is people like you on here, I wouldnt know what to do otherwise lol.
I'll keep you all posted on my progress. In march I will be doing my first tilt if everything goes to plan, so ill make sure to get a video or some pics at least.


Are you doing early medieval or late ? Personally I've only ever done late 15th jousting so won't be much help if your doing the early stuff .Look forward to hearing how it goes .
There's a lot of experienced guys (& girls ) offering you advice in this thread BTW 8-)



Templar Knight
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:43 pm
Location: Solihull
Contact:

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Templar Knight » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:54 pm

Yeah, the above was meant for everyone. My true ambition is to be able to do joust 15th Century style. But also just to ride in my Templar harness. I want to re create the most accurate Templar harness seen to date, which is going to be hard seeing as the information on them is different from sources to sources. But that harness isnt for jousting in, too unsafe unless using balsa lances ( I would presume ).


"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life."

User avatar
Brendan C
Posts: 307
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:17 pm
Location: Southampton, Hampshire

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Brendan C » Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:21 pm

Templar Knight wrote:Yeah, the above was meant for everyone. My true ambition is to be able to do joust 15th Century style. But also just to ride in my Templar harness. I want to re create the most accurate Templar harness seen to date, which is going to be hard seeing as the information on them is different from sources to sources. But that harness isnt for jousting in, too unsafe unless using balsa lances ( I would presume ).


15th century? Buddy, there weren't any Templars around by then

Brendan C


That's not a new dawn, that's some Norman bastard burning down your village

Friesian
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Friesian » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:06 am

Templar Knight wrote:Yeah, the above was meant for everyone. My true ambition is to be able to do joust 15th Century style. But also just to ride in my Templar harness. I want to re create the most accurate Templar harness seen to date, which is going to be hard seeing as the information on them is different from sources to sources. But that harness isnt for jousting in, too unsafe unless using balsa lances ( I would presume ).


So will you be buying 2 harnesses ? :o

Don't underestimate how much damage a balsa tip can do .A split balsa could really ruin your day if your not properly protected & its not uncommon to run it through to the main lance either



Templar Knight
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:43 pm
Location: Solihull
Contact:

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Templar Knight » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:14 am

Yeah 2 harnesses, one full plate, the other full maille. Any recommendations on how to make using maille safe? All I can think of would be I have to have a good coat of plates and a good great helm.


"We are here to add what we can to life, not to get what we can from life."

User avatar
lucy the tudor
Post Knight
Posts: 1984
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:57 am
Location: Lancashire
Contact:

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby lucy the tudor » Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:34 pm

Friesian wrote:BTW not sure still if you were talking to me as I'm not the one starting off jousting (its Templar Knight ) .......Wouldn't claim I'm not still learning though :wink:


Yes, sorry got a bit lost in thought about ex neds, and lost the thread there.


lucythetudor@gmail.com

a filthy, arse-grabbing strumpet, masquerading as a demure two-door lady.

Friesian
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Friesian » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:56 pm

lucy the tudor wrote:
Friesian wrote:BTW not sure still if you were talking to me as I'm not the one starting off jousting (its Templar Knight ) .......Wouldn't claim I'm not still learning though :wink:


Yes, sorry got a bit lost in thought about ex neds, and lost the thread there.


:D It happens



Fletchtravers
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:23 pm

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Fletchtravers » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:30 pm

I've see a few jousting shows now over the UK and the best show by far is Justin Pearson's 'The Knights of the Damned' www.theknightsofthedamned.co.uk

They are professional stunt performers from Film and Television and they do a live rendition of "A Knights Tale' including Colour, stunts, speed, tricks and hits!

I've seen Winship and his show and it is very very dated and very slow, almost embarrassing to watch and i've also see the Devils Horseman and their jousting show, they had nice enough horses but the costumes and equipment look like cheap fancy dress throughouts!

For the best in modern day jousting deffo the Knights of the Damned, faultless and very professional



Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4240
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:39 pm

I'm taking a deep breath and then letting fly...

There are many groups and companies out there doing 'jousting'.

Jousting in its 'true' form is where two opponents attempt to break wooden lances on agreed areas on each other. Simple. That's it.

However its NOT that simple as its open to a massive amount of interpretation due to various factors.

Whilst there are many thoroughly entertaining, colourful, professional and exciting shows out there (Knights of Royal England, Knights of the Damned, Nottingham Jousting Association, Geoff Winship, Knights of the Apocalypse etc etc), plus some lesser attempts, providing medieval themed arena entertainment it's NOT jousting that any medieval knight would understand. They are not trying to break wooden lances on each other in a non-choreographed way using accurate replica medieval arms and armour. Its no more an accurate impression of the sport than a production of Dick Wittington is a faithfully recreated slice of 14th century London. I have watched and appeared in many so not only can I say that from an 'insiders' viewpoint, but also as someone who spends a great deal of time, effort and money in trying to replicate true jousting in its original form. One of my main reasons for this is its 'no excuses' reenactment. You do it for real or its just not the same as the original. There are no cheats, no short-cuts and no substitutes for getting it right and accurate.

Riding is the core skill, but its got to be the right riding. You never stop learning this, its a skill that constantly needs topping up to achieve a minimum standard. Then there is the right kit and equipment. This is a horrendously complicated area which deserves a separate volume, not just a thread, but suffice to say our late 15th cent forebears had had about 400 years of r&d behind them before the sport had got to the point where it actually was just that, with rules and universally understood methodology from Constantinople to Carlisle and other corners of the Christian world and a wee bit further.

Most of the 'top' jousters that I know would not readily attempt to joust much pre approx mid 14th cent as before then the more specialised protective equipment is not about. There is some, but its not yet part of a completely homogenized 'system' and vital parts of the body get less than adequate protection so the risks are too high to modern people who don't absolutely have to prove themselves in the lists for chivalric purposes. We are too aware of the possibilities of injury and death.

I'd agree with Jason and others that not all horses will joust. They are all individuals and all have a psychology that can to some degree be trained and shaped but if they don't want to do it that's it. Many people call them intelligent, but its an intelligence that's very different to ours and they have a different way of looking at things. Want to make money? Become a horse psychologist.... I know horses that will happily joust but are afraid of variously bees, crisp packets and man hole covers. Not all horses are of the correct type or breed for jousting either. This is another important aspect when attempting to recreate aspects of historical equitation. One thing they certainly weren't are 17th cent and onwards draught horses.

So to re-cap a bit, Nicky at Tournament Stud and Dominic at Historic Equitation are my recommendations for picking up the riding skills and getting advice at where to go with Jousting. Then its the tricky question of what type of jousting....and when, it changes a lot over 150 years. Most people look at the later Wars of the Roses as that's what they understand through battle re-enactment and living history but jousting then is pretty different and riding about in a field harness isn't really the standard now, especially where the helmet and arm armour is concerned. Many jousters are upgrading to frog mouthed visors, mannifers and polder mittens to reflect the norm at the time. To my knowledge there are only 4 'joust royal' or proper solid lance harnesses in the country that can compete at the highest level, and only 2 of those I'd trust to do joust of war with sharp lances. Dount that will ever happen due to potential injury to the horses but there are always shopping trollies....


It all costs money of course, although it doesn't all have to be gilded and covered in velvet and jewels. Some jousting armour was pretty crude and shonky, but its all jousting armour, specifically designed for such, not something you'd use in combat.

A quick rough tot up of money spent on jousting shows you what you might spend:

3 lances (minimum, 5 is better) about £350 although that doesn't include the tips if doing balsa work. Solid lances are more expensive but you break slightly fewer. That doesn't include the coronels in rubber or steel. Then add vamplates.
decent Boots £350
Spurs £50 to £250
caparison £250
rein covers, trappings etc £150 upwards
targe £80-£350
Saddle £400-£3,000
harness £6-30k
Helm £800-£4k (and bear in mind the Earl of Arundel had 11 listed in his will......)
crest £400+
Livery for your staff....
Storage and upkeep.....
Horse £2k upwards....

and that's for one set of kit, one 'persona', one style. In some instances a jouster will get paid, about £250 to £400 per day depending on client and style. But that will barely you keep you in autosol and saddle soap.

the ranges indicate how blingy and showy you'd like to be. But you can spend as much as you like. I've gone down the buy a horse and pay someone else to keep it option so thats better for my time, but not my bank balance. I have told said mount he is absolutely not to get ill as I'm not keen on vets bills.


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4240
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:40 pm

faultless


well you might say that but I doubt they would, always room for improvement.


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4240
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Mark Griffin » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:39 pm

and I'll just add that fletchtravers inadvertantly makes a good point. He calls them a jousting SHOW. A dramatised event basically. A real joust is a sport you are allowed to watch that we fit into a specific time slot for the benefit of the client and audience. Yes you can have some drama around the edges but what true jousters do is a competitive sport, albeit an archaic one. What a jousting show is is a pantomime, and I don't mean that in a demeaning way. There are set runs, set falls, chorographed fights, dramatic dialogue, characters etc etc. Its slick and hopefully entertaining.


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby guthrie » Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:34 pm

Mark Griffin wrote: What a jousting show is is a pantomime, and I don't mean that in a demeaning way. There are set runs, set falls, chorographed fights, dramatic dialogue, characters etc etc. Its slick and hopefully entertaining.

The problem comes from our good old friend the english language and people's interaction with it, because what sometimes happens is that "jousting show" gets turned into "Jousting" and "Medieval jousting" which then sets up false ideas of what is happening in people's heads. Even if they don't expect or know it to be what jousting was really like, people end up associating what they have seen with the historical reality, rather like how tabloid ideas infect people through constant repetition.



Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4240
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Mark Griffin » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:22 pm

You are right Guthrie, but that doesn't mean I have to sit there and take it!


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby guthrie » Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:10 pm

Mark Griffin wrote:You are right Guthrie, but that doesn't mean I have to sit there and take it!

Doesn't that depend on how much they are paying you? :wink:

BUt yes, you don't have to take it, and this being a forum almost all input is welcome.



Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4240
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Mark Griffin » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:50 pm

Doesn't that depend on how much they are paying you? :wink:


Happy to joust for a lot less than my usual daily rate. But the expenses of moving horses, lances, ground crew etc etc tend to add up.


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

DanceswithCows
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 7:27 pm

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby DanceswithCows » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:19 am

Mark Griffin wrote:harness £6-30k



:wtf: I'm only familiar with 'harness' in terms of draught, what is jousting harness?



Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4240
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Best way to start learning to joust

Postby Mark Griffin » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:35 am

a harness of armour. Often called a 'suit' of armour although that term is less favoured for various reasons. So we normally use 'harness' as its the more 'correct' term and is certainly common in the period to describe an all over covering of armour.


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.


Return to “1100-1500”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests