15th century hats?

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Tod
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15th century hats?

Postby Tod » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:50 am

Being blue skinned I tend to burn in the sun. Is there any type of broad brimmed hat that is correct for the 15th century, in particular the last third (WOTR). I'm not looking for some thing the rich would wear, just a normal tradesman/worker.
If so who sells them?



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John Waller
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Postby John Waller » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:25 pm

Larsdatter is your friend http://www.larsdatter.com/strawhats.htm


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Wiblick
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Postby Wiblick » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:31 pm

the rush hats from The Crafty Beggars are practically compulsory wear!

http://www.tabulae.org/tudor/the-crafty-beggars



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:46 pm

Pilgrims hat, Phil Fraser makes them. Straw hats-yeah i'd go for one of them too.
Lets face it this is Britain, you won't need to keep the sun out of your eyes that often.


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Postby Type16 » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:49 pm

Straw :-)


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www.andysherriff.co.uk ---- First Aid for Re-enactors

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Tod
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Postby Tod » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:54 pm

I thought the straw hat might be right but had better check. Sally made me a really nice knitted hat that is the same as at least four pictures I have and people still say its wrong becasue they see 17th century re-enactors with the same type - because knitted round hats must have really really changed :roll:
I'll talk to Kitty hats and see if they have any stock.
Grymm where are you?



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Karen Larsdatter
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Postby Karen Larsdatter » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:11 am

Tod wrote:Sally made me a really nice knitted hat that is the same as at least four pictures I have and people still say its wrong becasue they see 17th century re-enactors with the same type - because knitted round hats must have really really changed :roll:

Umm ... yeah, they kinda did, actually.

http://larsdatter.com/knit.htm has several extant examples of knit caps from the 16th-17th centuries.

A 15th century (hypothetically knit, though IIRC there aren't any surviving examples that'd be conclusive evidence to indicate that they were knit) cap would be a little higher, coming off of the head a bit, and kind of more pointy at the top than the 16th/17th century examples. Here's a few portraits that show what I mean:
http://www.wga.hu/html/a/antonell/portra_m.html
http://www.wga.hu/html/w/weyden/rogier/ ... luke2.html
http://www.wga.hu/html/b/bouts/dirk_e/2/portrai1.html
http://www.wga.hu/html/b/bouts/dirk_e/2/portrai2.html
http://www.wga.hu/html/b/bouts/dirk_e/a ... pero2.html
http://www.wga.hu/html/b/bouts/dirk_e/a ... pero3.html



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sally
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Postby sally » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:23 am

Whilst broadly I agree that many of the cap types for 15thc and earlier are higher on top, not all are, the St Denis cap as a rather early offering is 14thc and has a close fitting crown, and some of the MoL knitted fragments have been interpreted as being from low crowned knitted caps. Also the roll brimmed caps you see in some 15thc pics (and which in the absence of any surviving extant ones could plausibly be made by felting or knitting) are also low crowned

However, the cap I made Tod wasn't based on any one specific style or source, thats certainly true. When we planned the cap a few years ago now it was intended to represent a general likely stage in the evolution of knitted caps combining known knitting techniques for the dateline without going as far as some of the specific diagnostic detailing seen in later caps. It combined a folded double brim I'd seen on hats on some carved figures with the low crown of the aforementioned extant fragments and images, took shaping details from the lower crowned versions of the acorn cap, and was intended to explore a possible early form of what within a century developed into the Monmouth style cap and be a cap practical to wear both alone and under a helmet. So yes, conjectural, but done with deliberacy.

I think these days I'd always try to work from a more specifically pinpointable style, usually picking a given image to work from where extant hats dont exist- but I do still feel that Tods hat remains plausible within the parameters we were working to at the time. If its giving him grief within his particular group though, I'm happy to make something more specific, after all, research and kit guidelines develop all the time, and what seems a good choice one year can be supplanted by new thinking a few years later.



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Tod
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Postby Tod » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:42 am

To me it looks just like the ones in the pictures I have. The comments (few) have been throw away remarks and I'd wanted to get into a discusion at the time I could have pulled thier kit to bits.
It looks right to me. None of the groups I belong to have said any thing, in fact the opersite is true.
I think what is more likely is that some 17th century re-actors have hats that are similar to mine and there for others think they only had wool hats then :roll:
1642
What shall we do?
I know lets make a hat that has never been invented before.
Do you think Cromwell will let us?
It'll be OK as long as we don't call it a Charlie hat or Christmas cap.
But what about the ones my family have been wearing for the last few hundred years?
Oh ours will be different.
How so?
Ours are 17th century.
:wink:




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