Richard II

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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:02 pm

"The point of the comment is that Wellesly, a very fine man, with almost no equal, did not want to be thought of as Irish, despite being born in Ireland, and hence the implied snub to the Irish.
"


Yes, yes, I know all of that, he hated the idea of being thought a bog trotter, Marcus, however is the opposite, I thought it quite apt to mention it in light of the Wellesley comment, our wee man is more than happy to be born in the 'stable' so to speak.

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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:20 pm

Wellington? Irish? He's about as Irish as Patrick.
Fantastic soldier and leader mind you, but then what do you expect from a Son of Erin.


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:46 pm

"but then what do you expect from a Son of Erin."


What is that sound?

It is the whirring of Arthur Wellesly spinning in his grave ;-)


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:22 am

Stables? There are no stables in Ireland since the theiving English stole them.


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Postby Hellequin » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:19 am

Soren wrote:I've got a rather deep question for ya'll. I've been a huge fan of Edward the Black Prince and have done a lot of research on him. Recently I started to read about his son Richard II. The overall question is: Where did Richard II go wrong?
:wink:



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:19 pm

Of course there is nothing at all to say that "Edward IV the Black King" would have been any good as a ruler.


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Postby Simon Atford » Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:35 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:Of course there is nothing at all to say that "Edward IV the Black King" would have been any good as a ruler.


He didn't exactly endear himself to the people of Gascony dide he :twisted:

He may well have ended up a bit like Richard I. A good war leader a bad ruler. What ifs are always good fun though arn't they?



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:54 pm

His attempt to woo the Gascons into an alliance against the French King was simialr to the U.S. hello we're here to save you by blowing you all to sh** efforts of Vietnam, Panama, Somalia, Iraq, Afganistan...

I suppose killing all your potential allies does at least prevent them from ever becoming future eniemes. :?


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Postby Soren » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:31 pm

Well, this topic started out about Richard II, and has obviously turned, but I have 2 comments on Marcus' opinion. It's possible that Rich II father may not have been the greatest king, had he lived long enough, but I do think that it was not entirely all his fault how Gascony behaved. Long before the Black Prince was given the reigns, Gascony had been a thorn in the side of any one who 'ruled' it. A bunch of small time gentry whose alliances continually changed when they didn't get what they wanted or their freedoms were encroached upon. Kind of like little Johny running to mommy after daddy says no and vica versa. I don't think any one could have endeared themselves to Gascony.

2nd comment: I'd prefer comments about modern day politics, ie: Americans wiping out their allies, to be put in an appropriate forum, not the 1100-1500 category. I didn't start this thread for American bashing.



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Postby Fox » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:27 pm

Soren wrote:2nd comment: I'd prefer comments about modern day politics, ie: Americans wiping out their allies, to be put in an appropriate forum, not the 1100-1500 category. I didn't start this thread for American bashing.


Marcus' comments are in the vein of the original question; he's making a modern day analogue to the period you were discussing.

----

I'm, however, happy to appologise for hijacking your thread while poking a little bit of fun at Marcus; it started with the best intentions, but we got side tracked. Sorry. :oops:



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Postby Dave B » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:58 pm

Idon't think it's just an american bashing thread.

Marcus is rude to EVERYONE.


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:06 pm

Edwards diplomatic posture was akin to that of Charles The Bold's attemp to secure Savoy as a ally against the Swiss by kidnapping its ruler.

There is that period enough for you.

Of course you'll now have to read all about the Swiss Burgundian wars which will be much more fun then making any comparisons with the modern day. Heaven forbide that i compare hose with trousers or archers with field artillery

Idiot.


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:21 pm

And the fact the Gascany was such an awkward area to govern makes, at least in my own mind (and numerous other commentators both contemoprary to the period and since) it rather more important a region to woo.
Slashing and burning didn't make the people of gascony more friendly to the English.
Don't let your affection for the person get in the way of the fact that he made a bad decision.
And in numerous other posts I have supported America and its present postion against unpleasent anti U.S. bull*poop*.

I don't think I am rude to anyone until they are rude to me Dave. Except you of course ya wee hairy git.


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Postby Soren » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:59 pm

Now Marcus, you need to realize that I manage (yes, you may laugh) a turkey farm. I had just finished probing 8100 hens for eggs when I read your post and responded. I was weary and not a happy camper sticking my fingers up you know what, especially 8100 hens. So, I'll admit I over reacted. My apologies.

Back to the Black Prince in Gascony. I'm trying to be objective here, even though you were right in assuming I admire the guy. Even though on paper he was given total control of Aquitaine, wasn't he performing his duties, the burning and pillaging thing, from orders from England? Would he have had the power to order men, arrows, equipment from mother England without the consent of the crown? They were aware of his every move and if they disagreed with it wouldn't the government put an end to it?

Richard II: I had to add that so it looks like I'm staying on the original thread that I started :wink: .

Again, apologies for being offended over nothing. Turkeys, animal and people, get to me occassionally.



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:25 am

no bother, there are numerous examples in history of countries trying to win the favour of another by doing terrible things to them, henry VIII "rough wooing of Scotland", Germanies attempt to ensure America stayed neutral in WWI by sinking their shipping, the British attempt to win over Vichy France by sinking their fleet and invading Iraq, Charles VIX attempt to encourage Italy to support his planned crusade by invading it so Edward falls into this with grace and favour. I had hoped that ypu would have seen the American slant as a nudge to yourself as being something you would personally understand given your geographical location.
I just don't think you can really compare richard II to his father, there is nothing at all in how edward ran his affairs to suggest that he would have been a good or bad king.
he would have easily been able to order troops and supplies in his own right though, certainly the men who acted on behalf of henry VI in France were able to do so and they had to work according to much stricter "guidelines" than the Black prince did.


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Postby fishwife » Mon May 04, 2009 10:59 pm

I happen to like Richard II! If it hadn't been for him I would have no interest in history at all!

Poor lad had to deal with the in - fighting of all his uncles who each thought they had the right to be protector and ruler until he grew up, thank God he had some wits and started standing up for himself! He was pretty shattered by the death of his first wife from all accounts and the Irish problem was no easier for him than any other period (that's not saying I'm anti Irish or that I don't think they had the right to their own country..........) He was pretty c**p at fighting, but not so bad for the people. Hadn't mastered the art of keeping his word - but then how many of our rulers understand that? Choice of friends, that's always a dicey one, his wasn't the best was it? I wish I could have seen the Savoy Palace as it was, must have been incredible! Froissart is well worth the read to get a feel for the times, although he really goes with Grannie Phillippa.

Oh and I think that Bad King John was really Good King John and his brother could have done with being got by a poisoned arrow much earlier! Their mother - there's a lady to admire!

Have I covered everything now?!


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Postby gallois » Tue May 05, 2009 3:37 pm

As a follower of Owain Glyndwr I much prefer Richard ii to the usurper Henry iv and if it wasnt for the wierd events at Worcester in 1405 you might be living in a completely different England today. Complaining that your schoolboy 'English' isnt up to scratch!


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Wed May 06, 2009 1:13 pm

What? You'd all be speaking Gaelic? Would a Scotish monarch smile on the Welsh with more favour than an English one?
I doubt that the Percies, the Scots and the Welsh would have been able to stay on speaking terms for long. It was an alliance between peopels and individuals who were more inclined towards killing each other than getting pally.
I think it would just be the same sh** different day at the end of it.


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Postby Sir Thomas Hylton » Fri May 29, 2009 3:41 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:It's the name-Richard I, II and III were all crap kings.


That's as maybe & I don't disagree, but there has to be admited, there is a certain flair & romance about these three very flawed characters. Each in their own way.

To be quite honest, what King in History wasn't flawed in some way or another. They all had at least one cadaver in the guardrobe of one form or another.

I must agree that for say for instance RI going off to the cusades, the associated littary glossing of admitting a stalemate in the Holyland & abduction, missapropriation & more & yet we love him for it & romatisise RI the Lionheart...rofl The modern telling of the Legends of Robin Hood have as much to blame for turning a failed King into a Hero.

I say why not. Even the Black Prince was not perfect & he never got the chance to be King & yet the Romance & flair around him is as great if not greater.



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Postby Sir Thomas Hylton » Fri May 29, 2009 3:58 pm

Owain Glyndwr Now there's an interesting chap if ever there was one. Its throrised that his progreny didn' t die. And he actually had a claim & no less or more tenuous than any of the others around that period imho.

The face of Brittania could have been quite different today, though I wouldn't wish to guess too much as to how different a country we might be living in.



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Postby gregory23b » Fri May 29, 2009 5:22 pm

"The face of Brittania could have been quite different today"

You saying Dan is ugly??


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Postby Sir Thomas Hylton » Fri May 29, 2009 7:31 pm

gregory23b wrote:"The face of Brittania could have been quite different today"

You saying Dan is ugly??


Que...???



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Postby Nigel » Fri May 29, 2009 8:21 pm

gregory23b wrote:"The face of Brittania could have been quite different today"

You saying Dan is ugly??


nope we know he is ugly its hte things that hang around with him we are unsure aboiut


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Postby gregory23b » Sat May 30, 2009 6:51 pm

"Que...???"

Dan is the leader of Britannia, the UK's most notorious post-roman reenactment group.

I wee joke here.


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Postby Sir Thomas Hylton » Sun May 31, 2009 4:41 am

gregory23b wrote:"Que...???"

Dan is the leader of Britannia, the UK's most notorious post-roman reenactment group.

I wee joke here.


Och Aye I ken now... rofl



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Postby Ben Rodgers » Sun May 31, 2009 10:59 am

Just going back to the Richards and will try and stay on topic Richard I was only a bad king because of modern day opinion of him. Unfortunately for Richard II he was in a no win situation, much of his reign was governed by counsellor and they were pretty poor and when he did get chance to rule the damage was done although he didnt help matters. Richard III well its all Polydore Vergil and Sir Thomas More fault for that


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Postby Sir Thomas Hylton » Sun May 31, 2009 7:37 pm

Ben Rodgers wrote:Just going back to the Richards and will try and stay on topic Richard I was only a bad king because of modern day opinion of him. Unfortunately for Richard II he was in a no win situation, much of his reign was governed by counsellor and they were pretty poor and when he did get chance to rule the damage was done although he didnt help matters. Richard III well its all Polydore Vergil and Sir Thomas More fault for that


Interesting point about Vergil, though RIII didn't really need vergil to character assasinate as even without him, RIII was doing a good enough job on his own. Hence why I say He was a flawed character who clearly had flair.

Good point about RI, as what we would critisise these days, back then few would think too much ill of or think unusual.

As for RII, well clearly weak to allow advisors to missmanage him. However as with the points about RI, bad advice was not unusual in these times & none would think any less of.




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