"fake" Brigandine

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Pajo
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"fake" Brigandine

Postby Pajo » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:46 pm

o.k... heres the thing, I'm looking to get a brigandine suitable for the time period from Crecy to Agincourt... but... money being an issue I want to try get a "fake" one.. if you get what I mean... I want the look of the brigandine, without all the metal... maybe lightly padded (like an aketon) but studded up to look like a brigandine...

this is the general look I'm goin for... Image

Any ideas folks..?

Also, has anyone bought from Wildarmoury? are they good? lookin at some boots and shoes on there that I liked....

Thanks guys :D


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Postby Dave B » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:54 pm

You are in the wrong bit here - this is the area for querstions about the ofrum. will move this to the 1100 - 1500 section


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Postby Pajo » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:59 pm

ty Dave, I wasnt entirely sure, as I dont use the site too much... so thought I'd chance my luck... sorry bout that!


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:53 am

This is earlier than the period I re-enact but I think it may be a COP you need rather than a brig, in which case you could try Steel Armouries who have an ebay shop.
There stuff looks more like a COP than a brig dispite what they say.
I would be very weary of you having a "pretend brig" if you are going to wear it at a battlefield re-enactment unless you are going to be some kind of "non-com". If you are wearing what looks like a brig you may have some ponce hitting you hard in the ribs thinking you are in a real one.
My most unpleasent recent near accident on the battlefield took place at the old Berlkey Skirmish when I was faced with a nutter charging at our spear line in what looked like a brig and carrying a longsword in one hand and a hand axe behind a buckler in the other.
At practically the last moment I realised that hsi "brig" was kind of rippling and that it was in fact just a light leather jerkin studded to look like a real brig under which he just had a doublet so I turned the point of my halbred away and directed it into the ground sparing him from being impaled upon the end of it...
At which point he carried on charging into me and smacked me twice about the face with his rim of his buckler, had I not been wearing a bevor he would have crushed my larynx.
As it was I cannot recall either leaving the battlefield as my head was ringing and I just started working on autopilot.
One day I shall meet him again and this time I'll let the numpty skewer himself.
Be a shame if I got the wrong man in the false brig, omae. :wink:


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Postby Pajo » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:13 am

I had thought of the CoP alrite, and someone else mentioned it to me...

luckily, I dont fight with many ppl that dont know me over here, so it would b easy enuf to let ppl know that I'm not wearing steel.. plannin on padding it a lil aswell, and having maille etc underneath it.. so not 3 bad, if u get my meaning.. its kinda a cost saving measure at the mo... but I do get what u mean, and certainly agree to an extent... oh and dont worry, u wudnt get me mixed up with anyone else, evn at shows, I tend to stand out a lil! lol! ty very much by the by, I shall check out steel armouries tonite :)


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Postby X » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:53 am

I'd be against fake brigs. Even if you don't usually fight against people who don't know you, if there's any chance at all that this might happen, steer away from fake protective equipment.

Nasty accident happened at Tewkesbury a few years ago to a chap in a fake brig. He steamed into the Gloucesters' line, and they steamed right back. Then he was carted off the field on a stretcher, with a depressed fracture of the ribs. Apparently you could see the space underneath filling with blood...

All it needs is one person to fail to spot that you have taken the field inadequately protected, on one occasion, and it could be you being blue-lighted off the field.

Of course, it is your decision - but consider the feelings of the person who hits you, expecting to feel the resistance of steel, but instead feeling the crunch of ribs transmitted up the shaft of their weapon. Knowing that they've put you in hospital (even though it was your fault for not wearing proper equipment) could ruin their entire weekend.



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Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:35 pm

I'm with X, it's just not fun fighting agaist people who aren't armoured as they appear (or worse as they behave). If you don't want to spring for the cost of steel, you could try baked leather. I'm told that it's fairly easy to do (must be vedg-tan leather though) and you can mould it to shape by hand. That will protect you from the odd unexpected blow and will make the brig/COP move like there are solid plates in it.


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Postby Fox » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:45 pm

I'll add my voice to that.

I flinched when I read the words "fake" Brigandine.

You can obviously assess and take whatever risks you like, but you should spare a thought for the poor devil who hurts you if it all goes wrong.

My experience would tell me that the most likely cause of serious injury is armour that does not protect in the way it appears to.

You might be able to build something that would protect you like steel, but weigh much less, using the right sort of plastic.



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Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:13 pm

Fake brigs are for LARPing and fancy dress parties only IMHO.


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Postby Pajo » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:49 pm

o.k, people seem to have taken my intentions COMPLETLEY wrong... lol! My fault I guess for the wording. when I say "fake" brig', what I mean is simply the style... more correctly would be I guess to say a sleeveless jack... in a similar style to the brig. I'm talking wearing it with maille and other protection, not on its own! (unless I aint on the field or whatever.).

dont worry, I know well the pain that goes with taking hits that come too hard, as I've had to fight with many a man who doesnt seem to know what "pulling a shot" is... :( So I have no desire to take more of that than I need to! basically, I like the look of brigs.. but not the money or the wieght... so lets go with the words "sleeveless jack". tho I think I may have settled on getting one of both.. starting with the jack and then maby splashin out on a nice brig when money allows.

so, everyone calm now...? lol


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Postby X » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:21 pm

I'd still say no.

A brigandine provides more protection than even a very good jack, and a very good jack doesn't weigh all that much less than a brigandine.

People do adjust their shots to the level of armour they perceive that their opponent is wearing, and something that looks like a brig might attract the level of force associated with brigs. Even wearing a very good jack, the kind of shot that might get aimed at armour will knock the wind out of you: it's happened to me when someone assumed I was wearing metal under my livery, instead of just my jack. My jack is a very good one indeed - it stands up on its own - but no fabric has the rigidity, and therefore protective ability, of metal plates.

Wearing a fake brig over a jack, or a jack that looks like a brig - especially the kind of jack that looks like a duvet - may well get you more bruises than you'd like.

If you are going to trade the fake in for the real thing anyway, why not just wait a season? A good brigandine goes for about £500 - if you can afford £10 a week, you might be able to get one for next season (earlier, since you could put the price of the fake towards the real thing...) One thing I've learned is that if you buy crappy kit, you only end up spending more overall because you end up replacing it. If you've got time to save up, then in the long run it's cheaper to do so and get something drool-worthy first time around.

And, from your opponent's point of view, I don't really care what my opponents like the look of, or can or can't afford - I much prefer that whatever they're wearing, it provides the level of protection that it appears to, instead of going crunch when I hit it. If someone is wearing what is obviously a crappy jack, then I know to hit it lightly. If they're wearing metal, then I can go in a bit heavier.

The way I look at it, if you are fighting - particularly if you are fighting people you don't know well - just as you have a duty to be safe in the use of your weapon so that you don't injure them, you have a duty to wear decent protective equipment so that they don't injure you. Poor or deceptive protective equipment makes it more difficult for your opponent to not injure you, and is therefore not fair on them.



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Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:38 pm

Not to mention the fact that the rivets are the thing that really makes a brig look like a brig.

They are unfortunately also the main thing that makes a brig cost like a brig!

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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:46 am

I disagree that a brig offers more protection than a good jack. the problem is there are not many people with really good solid jacks around. A jack provides protection for you arms and depending upon the style your throat and thighs as well wearas a brig doesn't unless you get one with tasstes and pauldrons as well.
It may be percieved as offering more protection which is why some people-the same idiots who like to put dents in harness-hit harder which may work against you.
Some brigs were little more than "stab vests" to be worn under normal clothes in the nasty world of Italian inter clan feuding for instance, but even the best of them seem to be worn as part of a layer of protection that would include a gambeson and maille.
A good jack was considered better than a brig according to the ordinances of Burgundy and France.


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Postby Fox » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:58 am

Well, let's accept that what you want is a sleeveless jack.

Why don't you just have one of those (not pretending to be anything else)? I can see no objection to it, historically speaking.

Cloak'd and Dagger'd produce handmade, knotted jacks, starting at £99 (perhaps less without sleeves). They do currently have quite a long waiting list.
[I should declare that my other half is Cloak'd and Dagger'd]

Other producers of padded armour, in a range of prices, are available.
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Postby Pajo » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:59 am

Dya know, completly by chance while showing my friend the difference between a jack a brig' and a CoP on google yesterday (shes a non-reenactor, but my closest friend, so I dont hold it against her.. lol) I actually found a loverly jack with removable sleeves that I must say I likez the look of a LOT... so gona go with that! when I have the cash I'm gona get meself a nice brig'... so I'm all happy now.


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Postby wulfenganck » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:09 pm

Pajo wrote:Dya know, completly by chance while showing my friend the difference between a jack a brig' and a CoP on google yesterday (shes a non-reenactor, but my closest friend, so I dont hold it against her.. lol) I actually found a loverly jack with removable sleeves that I must say I likez the look of a LOT... so gona go with that! when I have the cash I'm gona get meself a nice brig'... so I'm all happy now.

Hi,
maybe hijacking your thread, but out of interest: do you know any period source for a jack with removable sleeves?
I know:
- jacks with long sleeves
- jacks with short sleeves (t-shirt shape)
- jacks with no sleeves at all.

But I never ever have seen any evidence for one of those jacks with sleeves laced to the body - you'll see it quite often, but I strongly take that hiole thing for an reenactorism.....



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:39 pm

Some of the figures in the Martyrdom of St Ursula look like they are wearing jacks with what appears to my untrained eye to be shirts poking out under their oxsters.


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Postby wulfenganck » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:57 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:Some of the figures in the Martyrdom of St Ursula look like they are wearing jacks with what appears to my untrained eye to be shirts poking out under their oxsters.

Yes, the St. Ursula shrine by Memling is very often used as a source for jacks - especially for one with removable sleeves.
Here: http://www.replications.com/greys/Standards/ClothingEssays/Jacks.htm is a nice collection of pictures of jacks of different shape, size, padding etc. There is also one from the St- Ursula shrine, look here: . http://www.replications.com/greys/images/Standards/ClothingEssays/jacks/Full/36ursu06_jack.jpg
After a closer look on the picture one will see, that ut is NOT a jack with laced sleeves. The lace is for lacing the jack-chains on to the jack.
Again: there is a big variety of forms of jacks or textile armour or whatever you'll like to call it.
But I have found no evidence for that jack-with-removable-laced-sleeves which are frequently worn by reenactors.
I'd be glad to see an evidence by the way, because I used to wear a jack like that years ago and would like to put it back from my "LARP-chest" to th "living-history-chest".



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Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:57 pm

I am hoping to get a rivited jack made, like the one in the Martyrdom of St Ursula by Memling. One of the things that worries me about it is that people might think that it's a brig.

I've noticed some of the guys in that picture appear to have either gaps under the arms and at the elbows, or unpadded gusstes there, but I've never noticed anything to make me think that the sleeves are removable.


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Postby wulfenganck » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:59 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:.....I've noticed some of the guys in that picture appear to have either gaps under the arms and at the elbows, or unpadded gusstes there, but I've never noticed anything to make me think that the sleeves are removable.

Lucky you!! I had exactly that discussion at least three times in the past 2 or 3 years...



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:04 pm

Okay, as I don't have a jack which has detachable sleeves i can't say i'm that bothered-you should be well p*ssed though Wulf. Why don't you just remove any lacing and just wear it as a sleeveless jack?


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Postby wulfenganck » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:12 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:Okay, as I don't have a jack which has detachable sleeves i can't say i'm that bothered-you should be well p*ssed though Wulf. Why don't you just remove any lacing and just wear it as a sleeveless jack?
That's what I did - until I upgraded to the wonderful world of plate armour....currently finishing my arming doublet.
But the jack is a lot easier to put on and would be a nice addition for fencing exercise in camp/public show



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Postby Fox » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:44 pm

Then just attach the sleeves; based on the evidence apparently sited here (and certainly not my area of expertise) you wouldn't have to attached them all the way round.



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Postby hazy » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:41 pm

I'm no fighter myself but I was going to say the same as Fox- theres several pictures of the sleeves just sewn to the main body by the top third of the sleeve, if that makes sense? I'll see if I can find a picture...

like this http://www.replications.com/greys/image ... 6_jack.jpg

Its one of the pics from the link posted earlier in the thread



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:47 am

I must admit it does seem strange to wear a jack with tie on sleeves. It would invite me to aim for youse oxsters everytime.


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:04 am

If doing Crecy to Agincourt, bear in mind a wide range of style difference, clothing wise and armour.

Go for a long bodied aketon (jack), well made, with half sleeves, an archer's skull. A short bodied one is a later style IIRC.

As Marcus says, a well made jack will protect your B***cks and thighs, a brigandine wont do that unless supplemented by mail or jack etc, as seen in Martyrdom of St U.

In general people should not be hitting people harder because they are wearing metal armour, I was under the impression that 'good practice' was to hit someone as if they were not wearing any, any harder by prior arrangment/script etc.

If I had the money I would have a Brigandine with mail skirt, and a thinner jack underneath, but that would be dearer than a well made jack.


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Postby Fox » Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:09 am

gregory23b wrote:In general people should not be hitting people harder because they are wearing metal armour.


While that seems true(ish), I can tell you that when in armour I am completely oblivious to more gentle hits.
If people want me to respond when I am hit they'll have to hit me hard enough that it least makes a noise.
I would rather they hit me firmly in the centre of a well armoured area that attempted to hit less well armoured parts.

Also, people in armour would generally like to fight more robustly.

While every blow should be controlled, and pulled to some extent, it makes sense to operate a "sliding scale"; which is a perfectly safe concept if people do not make "fake" armour.



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Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:36 pm

I'll echo that Fox. When I'm in the tin, I need a more solid 'tap' to make the blow known. That's not to say that it must be hard enough to dent thearmour, just to make a good 'tink'.

For Agincourt Jacks, I think you want a high collar tyoo (especially at the back?).


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Postby Brendan_the_lesser » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:28 pm

i know Pajo has moved on from the idea of a "fake" brig, but i still think i can understand his reasoning for it, in Ireland we rarely, if ever, face plate armour, and when we do we probably go a lot lighter on it then most people do in England, simply due to lack of familiarity with it, so if i saw someone over here wearing something resembling a Brig i probably wouldnt hit him any harder then normal.

Secondly you have to remember that it is fully possible to let ALL the fighters on the field here know that its not plates if you want to, rarely do we have more then 50 fighters in a battle, most of whom know each other, and i think everyone knows the infamous Pajo anyway :twisted:

on the subject of hitting people in armour, i know that you need to be hit harder to feel/hear it, but i think there is something really wrong if they end up with broken ribs, fair enough if they charge head-first into a line of halberds with nothing more then cardboard armour the eejit deserves it, but the worst damage someone you think is wearing armour should get is some nasty bruises.


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Postby gregory23b » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:43 pm

Get an aketon, that way you have armour that is right for the period, Brigs are later than the era in question, and a well made aketon will really be armour, unlike a fake brig/cop.


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