kidney pouch fittings?

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I Dev
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kidney pouch fittings?

Postby I Dev » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:03 pm

Hi there anyone recommend a suppler of Kidney pouch fittings?



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Postby guthrie » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:55 pm

I'm pretty sure white rose castings do one or two, and theres some people who advertise on here, i am sure.

Does anyone have any provenance for pewter purse fittings apart from buckles?



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Postby Steve Stocker » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:16 am

Nope,
My research indicates that most leather pouches were either plain apart from the buckle or decorated by tooling the leather or stitching in fancy patterns.
Reenactors do seem to want the pewter mounts though and there are one or two contemporary examples with mounts - possibly silver - as in this one;
http://www.artchive.com/artchive/c/campin/merode_altarpiece_left.jpg.


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I Dev
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kidney pouch fittings?

Postby I Dev » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:35 pm

Thanks for the info chaps very helpful.
Ian



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Karen Larsdatter
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Postby Karen Larsdatter » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:43 pm

guthrie wrote:Does anyone have any provenance for pewter purse fittings apart from buckles?

Do you mean pewter specifically, or white metal (presumably silver) in general (that could be re-created as pewter for re-enactors)?

In addition to the aforementioned Peter Engelbrecht in The Mérode Altarpiece, there's also:
(Just snagged these from http://larsdatter.com/pouches.htm -- I knew it'd eventually be handy to group these in their own bunch! -- but no, I don't know of extant examples online, if that's the next question.) :)



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Postby guthrie » Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:07 pm

Both would be nice- I have a bit of silver that I am sure could be put to good use.



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Postby Kaos Ben » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:31 pm

I thought that someone else would post the link, but nobody has, so here goes: http://bractea.freha.pl
He sells a great replica of the Merode Altarpiece fittings. On his site they are only featured on the purses, but when asked they'll sell them apart as well.

I don't like his purses much, but I've ordered the silver fittings and had a great purse constructed around them, based on Olav Goubitz's research in 'Purses in Pieces'.

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Here you can find more photo's of the purse, if you're interested:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=87071&highlight=



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Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:58 pm

Just to dip a fly in your ointment, I've heard rumour that the kidney purses weren't that popular in England and were more of a Burgundian/Flemish thing. It's something that you may want to look into.

All the best.


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:51 pm

I'd have thought that made them popular enough. The English court did a good job of apeing Franco-Burgundian fashions.


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Postby Karen Larsdatter » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:23 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:I've heard rumour that the kidney purses weren't that popular in England and were more of a Burgundian/Flemish thing.
There's the purse at http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/secrets/medtrd.htm -- though it did contain "coins and trading tokens from the continent."



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Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:42 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:I've heard rumour.......



Where do these rumours always come from? I'm sure they are started by those bloomin Viking types who like to cause confusion by spouting this stuff and causing us to worry rather than DO. Here's a snippet I overheard at Kirby one year

"You know, I heard that English folk in 1468 only ever wore one shoe (on their left foot, never on the right one) in protest against the French being allowed to wear longer piked toes because they were geographically closer to the pope and therefore holier than we were."

"Yeah, nice one Kim, that'll keep them hopping about for bloody ages!"

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Postby guthrie » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:46 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:Just to dip a fly in your ointment, I've heard rumour that the kidney purses weren't that popular in England and were more of a Burgundian/Flemish thing. It's something that you may want to look into.

All the best.

So what other kind have you seen in illustrations of the period? I can't think of anything else.

edited to add: Yes, I know pictures aren't the be all and end all, what about finds?



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Postby Karen Larsdatter » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:10 am

guthrie wrote:So what other kind have you seen in illustrations of the period? I can't think of anything else.
edited to add: Yes, I know pictures aren't the be all and end all, what about finds?

Well, lots -- see http://larsdatter.com/pouches.htm :lol:

But for specifically English examples of late medieval pouches & purses ... hm. In addition to the kidney purse from York I'd mentioned above, there's a latten purse frame with niello decorations, and another copper-alloy purse frame with inscriptions. For an English image of this style of purse, there's the donor portraits on this altar frontal, but Goubitz goes into more detail on 'em in Purses In Pieces.

(Of course, tons more purse-hardware-bits like that -- though now that I'm looking for the old Museum of London catalogue that listed a bunch of 'em, I can't find it at all -- but there's more in Dress Accessories 1150-1450, along with extant purses, like this little silk lampas purse.)

Might post some more, later ... gotta get some actual classwork done. :)



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:04 pm

Thanks Karen.


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Postby Jenn » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:34 pm

Looking at dress accessories on p350 lists of purses/pouches which are very much like kidney pouches although it doesn't use that term; illustrations on page 351 (some nice pictures of the mounts too and on pg 357 the purse frame
It does state that they don't come into the archaeological record until the late 14th cent and 15th cent and appear to have been worn by men.
Since these finds were made in London and Dover if you wish to represent a 15th cent man you're probably okay.



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Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:33 pm

There's a very nice effigy in Glastonbury (not the abbey, a church on the main street), with a large frame purse. IIRC whomever I got that rumour from claimed that style to be the most common for the 15thC.


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Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:38 pm

Laffin Jon Terris wrote:
Colin Middleton wrote:I've heard rumour.......



Where do these rumours always come from?


If I knew that Jon, I'd tell you. It was probably on here, though possibly from a discussion with Sarah Thursfield last year. It's not something that I've had chance to look into yet and I hoped that by labeling it as a rumour, I'd get people to check it out, rather than just trust it outrigt.

So, a bit of research for people to do, what purses did the English wear and did we wear one or two shoes? :D

Merry Christmas!


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Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:58 pm

I wasn't having a go at you Colin, I've heard similar useful rumours before too!

Its one of those problems, there is just so much knowledge to find, sort, retain (and possibly dismiss) that it is difficult keeping track of what is right and what isn't!

What's worse is the oh so friendly and helpful manner that some people use to discredit other peoples attempts.

At least on the whole we're fairly friendly about stuff here!

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I Dev
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kidney pouch fittings?

Postby I Dev » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:01 pm

Hi heard from a metal detector chap that he finds the fittings or something similar all the time,
I did ask him for more details but he never came back to me. :cry:
story of my life.



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Postby lidimy » Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:45 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:
Laffin Jon Terris wrote:
Colin Middleton wrote:I've heard rumour.......



Where do these rumours always come from?




So, a bit of research for people to do, what purses did the English wear and did we wear one or two shoes? :D




Don't ask my sister that... she liked to wind me up by saying that 'back then' people didn't have left or right feet, just blobs with toes! :cry: :lol:


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Postby Vermin » Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:54 pm

lidimy wrote:Don't ask my sister that... she liked to wind me up by saying that 'back then' people didn't have left or right feet, just blobs with toes! :cry: :lol:


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Postby lidimy » Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:58 pm

Nope, flippers don't have toes! :lol:


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Postby greenland_and_game » Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:10 am

But he was a very good swimmer just the same :lol: :lol:


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Postby guthrie » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:45 pm

OK, I'm going to have to look through as many of my English pictures as possible in order to see what pouches men are wearing.

We are generally agreed that women didn't wear pouches? Especially not kidney pouches?



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Postby guthrie » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:22 pm

So far I see a few copper alloy purses, or the sort with purse bars. I also see some of the more usual leather pouches, generally on poorer people. Moreover, just to add to the fun, a lot of the pictures show people without belt pouches/ purses at all, which makes me think that the kind of gathered leather or cloth pouch sufficient to hold a few coins was all that most people had day to day. Therefore they wouldn't show up in any sort of record very much, being easily hidden beneath clothes and easily rotted.
Got another sighting of a pouch with silver coloured fittings similar to what is discussed in this thread, unfortunatley its in a book, seems to be in the Cotton collection, AUG AV folio 51, in the British library.
The protable antiquities scheme shows all sorts of bits of purses, the ones I can see so far being mostly copper alloy purse bars.

Colin, found anything out yourself?



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Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:43 pm

Sorry Jon, forgetting emoticons again. :oops:

I didn't feel 'had a go at' (is that correct grammer?), but I did feel that the question deserved a reply. I agree entirely that people are too eager to shoot down good ideas and I'm really glad that we've kicked people off to do a bit of digging themselves.

Sorry Guthrie, I've really had no time to look (and flu, which doesn't encourage any kind of research) and given that I'm almost ready for December the 10th, I don't think that I'll have much time until new year.

All I do know of is the Glastonbury purse that I described above and a gathered leather pouch in the museum at Lewis (can't recall the date). There's also the stuff in the MoL book. The problems that you've got include:
So few archeological finds that it distorts the results.
Most of the pictures that you'll be able to find will be by a foreign artist, so are they showing English fashion or Flemish (or where-ever), so how much can they be trusted?

Best of luck to all researching.


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Postby Karen Larsdatter » Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:38 pm

guthrie wrote:We are generally agreed that women didn't wear pouches? Especially not kidney pouches?

Women seem to have been more inclined to wear purses (that is, bags with a drawstring closure at the top, generally suspended from the belt rather than attached to the belt); obviously, a few examples at http://larsdatter.com/pouches.htm :wink: but for specific examples dating to around the same time as these fancy kidney-pouches, I'd say to look at some of these:



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Postby guthrie » Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:03 pm

THe really tricky question for you all is:

What material were the purses/ pouches that used the purse bars made of? Leather of fabric? Anyone got any accounts/ wills that might make that clear?



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Postby Karen Larsdatter » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:48 pm

guthrie wrote:What material were the purses/ pouches that used the purse bars made of? Leather of fabric? Anyone got any accounts/ wills that might make that clear?

Most of the extant examples seem to be made of leather. I wouldn't be surprised to find some with silk fabric, though, or silk embroidery; see this portrait of Guillaume Jouvenel des Ursins, for example.



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Postby guthrie » Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:05 am

Yes, that is the impression I am getting- pouches or indeed purses made of leather, but the ones with purse bars were made of cloth, sometimes expensive cloth.




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