Club tournee

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Zachos
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Club tournee

Postby Zachos » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:31 pm

So people like the idea. Rennee of anjou style tournaments. Lets get some resources together, get the equipment right and do it properly. Better, I think than battle re-enacting, tournament fights don't need to have fake deaths or anything like that, and the sporting aspect allows for the drama, so no scripts are needed.

To start us off, here is the tournament book online:

http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/renehome.html

Whos up for doing this properly?


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Phil the Grips
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Postby Phil the Grips » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:53 pm

Me.

The recent foot tourney in Berne, Germany showed that the nylon longsword wasters do have a purpose in that they, when hilted on more accurate hilts, prove to be just like whalebone wasters so we can whack away merrily- especially, as Jorge suggested, there is room for a "jack and hat" only tourney ( I ain't looked at that manuscript in a while). The nylon wasters are 80 euros or so and hilting would be expensive and need to be done to a consistent standard for safety etc.

Clubs are more tricky. I know that AEMMA used them but that required decent full harness. They would also be a b**ger to find and make- unless all entrants (or a sponsor?) was able to make enough clubs for the do and provide them free or each entrant stumped up for it and collected it there.

As to rules- it's easy. Once checked for minimum safety kit and 'thentiness of clobber then form into teams ( two, three or four) and then play 'til you verbally submit or three points of the body touch the ground at once.

Last man/team standing wins the prize.


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Postby Zachos » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:59 pm

One of the ways I believe was to have a group of female judges who chose the best team using all criteria. Might make for a fun way of doing it...


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Postby behanner » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:04 pm

The historical tournaments in California are heading towards this. mounted club combat in full 15th century harnesses.

I'm curious about these nylon wasters, anyone have any information on them?



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Postby Zachos » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:45 pm

behanner wrote:The historical tournaments in California are heading towards this. mounted club combat in full 15th century harnesses.

I'm curious about these nylon wasters, anyone have any information on them?


Would these be the historical enterprises tournaments?

The nylon wasters look to be quite good. I've not used them, but saw some of Griffs ones, and they're pretty funky. My one wonder is what whalebone wasters actually looked like. I heard someone say that they were often plated in metal to look like normal swords.

I like the idea of the hollow ground swords described in the tournament book. Quite interesting.


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Postby behanner » Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:10 pm

Zachos wrote:
behanner wrote:The historical tournaments in California are heading towards this. mounted club combat in full 15th century harnesses.

I'm curious about these nylon wasters, anyone have any information on them?


Would these be the historical enterprises tournaments?

I heard someone say that they were often plated in metal to look like normal swords.


Yea, there is a long collection of video of the one this spring that has just a few short minutes of club combat near the end.

It was more like gilding then plated. I believe it was silver.



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Postby Phil the Grips » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:33 pm

The wasters would be gilded or foiled- by chance i have heard that some of the nylon wasters could be made out of silver nylon in future so it'd solve that problem.

Footage of them being used in a HEMA context is on youtube- I don't like them for that, but for this they are ideal. Hollowground repros'd be nice but requires a lot of harness and could you find enough people (around 50 or so I reckon) prepared to shell out for one for an event?

Are we on the same track though? I am on Jorge's "jack and hat" idea which is far easier- a harness club tourney'd be a lot more effort and mounted even more so!


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Postby Zachos » Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:45 am

Well its always been my idea to have full club tournai harness, for mounted combat as well. I know this is more expensive, but not everyone needs to do that. Surely the swords wouldn't need to be nylon though for the jack tournee? What is the bonus of nylon wasters over rebated swords?


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Postby Phil the Grips » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:39 am

They are lighter so you can wang away with a little more abandon.

Rebated steel would mean having to add metal mitts and a lot more care into the equation.

Thrusts would still be out but serious injury less likely if an accident did occur.

"whalebone" is more unusual so gets more attention form both punters and participants and marks it out as different.

Nylons are cheaper and consistent in manufacture.

You can get lots of nylons fairly quickly- rebated steel takes time and I am envisioning equipping 50+ people.


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Postby Zachos » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:00 am

50+ is a number I hadn't considered. The kit would have to be top notch, and each team would have to be led by a knight that really plays the part, and looks it.

As for who supplies the weapons, I would say that each individual should provide their own. I know it would be just for one event at first, but it would be an event to remember and who knows where it may lead?

Jorge, do you have any more detailed information on the foot tournee?


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Postby The Methley Archer » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:48 am

I'd be intrested as well, as I'm only a 'Jack and Hat' guy.


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Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:44 pm

Sounds like an interesting idea. I might be up for it, if I can get my kit up to scratch in time.

I'd be inclined to charge an entry fee and then use that to buy the swords (which can be taken home as a souveneer) centrally. That way, you can ensure that they are of equal quality and might be able to get a discount.

I like the idea of the ladies judging. You could make quite a spectacle of it if you cloud plan it right. A stand for the judges in their finery and then a cluster of supporters (all in kit) around the stand and leave the other 3 sides clear for MOPs to view.

Add in an archery competition and you could be onto the next big event!


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Postby Carl / Sir Geoffrey » Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:19 pm

I'm just going to post here to let you know that I am interested.

I have only just started to read the tournament information so my knowledge if really limited at the moment. However, I have been thinking about how we can move forward with tournaments and the like, so shall watch this thread with interest.


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Postby lidimy » Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:30 pm

I like the idea. Personally, I find the pastime of standing on a wooden platform, leaning over and yelling excitedly at the violent antics of the men below most becoming.


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Postby Zachos » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:07 pm

I don't think yelling is very ladylike.


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Postby lidimy » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:11 pm

Uh oh, that's my invite in the bin! :lol:


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Postby gregory23b » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:40 pm

The one I have in mind is the Renee of Anjou one, in his book of tournaments, the one where you have four blokes ready with axes to chop the ropes separating the two parties.

The clubs might be solved by having leather pugel clubs, ie much the same in look but wooden core and sewn leather, less mass and a bit more flex.

But in my mind it is not just the tourney it is the trappings that surround it:

A properly made tourney fence

Various crests on display

Esquires

Servants

All in the right 15thc kit, good harness at whatever level, good clothes, no exceptions

Basically a foot version of the recent Tower Jousts, to that standard, not being horsey (as much as I love the joust) I think that a fab foot frenzy to the same level of kit could be a great spectacle and no less hard work.

cant find the pic, but it is in the Barber book, Boydell press, well known book.

Mr Griffin.....?????


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Postby Zachos » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:42 pm

The one you're thinking of is a mounted tournee. I'm on exactly the same page as you with the setup though.


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Postby gregory23b » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:54 pm

Zach, you are right, damn, ah well, never mind. It was a good idea while it lasted.


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Postby Zachos » Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:02 pm

And can remain one. We know they did have foot tournaments. Does anyone know if they had tournaments over a barrier in the 15th century?


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Postby gregory23b » Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:09 pm

Did they have group ones?


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Postby Zachos » Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:27 pm

Erm... Someone knowledgable know? I would imagine you would if you had team jousts and team mellee tournaments. Looks like even more research is headed my way.


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Postby Phil the Grips » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:16 pm

I knew I'd seen summat somewhere reputable describing what I am on about and just found it-
http://www.aemma.org/misc/events/wmaw_2 ... hourd.html

Basically anywhere form C13-17th...


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Postby Phil the Grips » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:19 pm

...and for really cheap you have stickfighting as an "everyman" version-
http://www.thearma.org/essays/LA_VERRA_ ... I_part.pdf
http://www.thearma.org/essays/LA_VERRA_ ... I_part.pdf


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Postby Edmund the Marshal » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:54 pm

Just started to read though the information on the tournament.

I'm sure you need a royal marshall/herald, let me know about the roles/people needed.

Sounds like an interesting project,

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Postby behanner » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:37 pm

To my knowledge there are no foot tournaments that resemble Rene of Anjou's Melee. It is just the nature of it. Foot combats tend to be more in the shape of a one on one duel. I believe the first known barrier fighting that did not take place as a deed of arms during a siege or what not was in the 1490s. While the audience might not know better the kind of foot melee tournament just isn't particularly historical.



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Postby Phil the Grips » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:28 pm

behanner wrote:Foot combats tend to be more in the shape of a one on one duel.

That's more for judicial combats and some displays of skill at arms- melees tend to have bigger numbers.

While the audience might not know better the kind of foot melee tournament just isn't particularly historical.
Yet there is evidence of the behourd and training sessions where "the lads" would get together and belt each other with staves while wearing light armour for practice and entertainment.

It may not have the pomp of a "Renee" tourney but still has a place as a warmup or lesser event to the main pageantry. Summat for the squires and lesser lads to have a chance to show of in while their bosses get themselves sorted for the big do.


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Postby behanner » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:51 pm

sorry I was not clear by duels I meant judicial duels.

some displays of skill at arms- melees tend to have bigger numbers


Please post evidence of such a feat of arms, not involving a siege that was fought on foot and not on horseback by bigger numbers.

Yet there is evidence of the behourd and training sessions where "the lads" would get together and belt each other with staves while wearing light armour for practice and entertainment.


Why do you believe that this took place on foot and not on horseback.

If your trying to do something based in history then you have to start with the history. If your not then why even bother pretending with it. What you are describing is what the SCA does. Why re-invent the wheel.



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Postby Phil the Grips » Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:30 pm

See the references in the first link about behourds I posted- not necessarily pageantry but certainly public displays of military-minded men, and impetuous youth, belting each other with sticks in public and on foot- popular through Europe, but perpetuated and developed in Italy to far later than elsewhere, likely replaced/overtaken by football in the UK when stickfighting remained a one-on-one encounter in the prizeplay/gladiator circuit.

Also "The War of the Fists: Popular Culture and Public Violence in Late Renaissance Venice" covers some of the European influence IIRC ( all my books are in storage in another country). If we are using a French source why not use an Italian?

It may not be called a "behourd" as they seem to have been mounted too (where the SCA get it wrong, as well as the heavy armour) but certainly an event that happened.


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Postby behanner » Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:19 pm

Outside of the Italian evidence the first link there is nothing that indicates they are fought on foot.

Actually there are a lot of reasons why French evidence has a lot of validity that Italian doesn't. While England is obviously a different place then France and for that matter France has different regions within it, the cultural connections between England and nothern France and the Low countries are extremely strong throughout the later Middle Ages especially among the upper classes. So in regards to chivalric activity there are a lot of cross cultural currents going on, very few with Italy. Italy is also very culturally different then Europe north of the Als.

If you are doing English history you have to stay withing a reasonable evidence body preferable with several good references from England then supplimented by evidence from else where.

Now if you are doing Italians then its Italian.




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