Groups in Essex?

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Phil the Grips
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Postby Phil the Grips » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:58 pm

Carl / Sir Geoffrey wrote:that one of the things that makes our battles inauthentic is the unrealistic proportion of clankies to un armoured levy.
That notion of a levy is wrong for a start- we are talking mainly about people with cash who are legally required to buy/provide arms and armour in proportion to their possession of property and/or as part the confirmation of their status in life. The idea of a "poor knight" or "ragtag archer/mercenary" as portrayed by many as an excuse to be wearing nowt or crap is pure fantasy.

While there may be too many fully armoured people wearing top to toe tin then everyone on the field (with exceptions of gunners, some light horse etc) would be armoured in some way- likely textile defences or some sort of metal over the major areas- through history it has been head first, then torso, then arms, legs being commonly reserved for those on horse.

Serious question:
What proportion of bill men would have more than a padded jack?
You're going to have to be more specific since this forum covers 400 years but a jack is not being unarmoured. It's the folk that appear wearing nowt more than a shirt, and they do appear, on the field that I am on about.

It may have changed markedly in the couple of years I have been away form massed combat- the last of this happening to me was Kelmarsh verss the Vike a couple of summers ago.


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Carl / Sir Geoffrey
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Postby Carl / Sir Geoffrey » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:44 pm

Phil the Grips wrote:You're going to have to be more specific since this forum covers 400 years but a jack is not being unarmoured. It's the folk that appear wearing nowt more than a shirt, and they do appear, on the field that I am on about.


OK, that makes much more sense to me, and I would agree with you in general.

On the whole I do not like to see people without a jack on. People who take the field in just a shirt, or worse in my opinion - mail over just a shirt make we worry about how little they are thinking about their own safety and I therefore wonder how much concern they have for other people's safety.

Tintagel is a special case since there are re-enactors from groups that cover a multitude of periods. Those periods and those groups have their own ideas about what is safe and what is minimum kit.

(I used to do Iron Age and did several shows with the guys from Brigantia. I used to look at clankies and think it all looks like too much hassle. )

If they want to take me on when I am wearing full plate then I will do my best to fight them safely.


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Postby Paul8v » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:35 am

Looks like I've opened a can of worms by mistake here! I wasa thinking to start off with I'd get a padded jack, a barbute and gauntlets, what else would I need apart from hose, footwear and a shirt?



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Postby Carl / Sir Geoffrey » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:12 am

Paul8v wrote:Looks like I've opened a can of worms by mistake here!


Don't worry Paul, it happens a lot on here. Once you get two re-enactors in one place then you will have at least 2 different opinions on how to do things. Add in the communication / interpretation / understanding problems due to electronic communications and its really easy to misunderstand what someone else means and how serious (or otherwise) someone is being.

Paul8v wrote: I wasa thinking to start off with I'd get a padded jack, a barbute and gauntlets, what else would I need apart from hose, footwear and a shirt?


To get on the field that would just about cover it I think.


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malias
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Postby malias » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:21 pm

Hi Paul,

i think the next Swords of Chivalry training session is on the 9th november, before you start investing in loads of kit pop along and try the combat & then get some kit to suit your prefered fighting style.

We are a very friendly group, some of us even speak fluent french under the influence of red wine :lol: :lol:

Andy



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Mark Lancaster
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Re: Groups in Essex?

Postby Mark Lancaster » Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:53 am

Paul8v wrote:Hi there, just been told about this forum so I thought I'd have a little look. I was just wondering if anyone knew of any re-enactment groups in the Essex area? I'm currently in the Sealed Knot but I'd like to do some medieval re-enactment too.

Many thanks

Paul


Hi Paul,

Not re-enactment (although we do have cross over with members) but we do medieval WMA (c1400) in Barking - which is traditionally Essex :D



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Graham Field
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Postby Graham Field » Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:02 pm

Hi

The MCS also have members in Essex and we do shows there as well.

Regards

Graham


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Re: Groups in Essex?

Postby Paul8v » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:24 pm

Mark Lancaster wrote:
Paul8v wrote:Hi there, just been told about this forum so I thought I'd have a little look. I was just wondering if anyone knew of any re-enactment groups in the Essex area? I'm currently in the Sealed Knot but I'd like to do some medieval re-enactment too.

Many thanks

Paul


Hi Paul,

Not re-enactment (although we do have cross over with members) but we do medieval WMA (c1400) in Barking - which is traditionally Essex :D


I've always fancied doing some WMA but didn't know there was one so close! What days do you do it on? Barking can be a bit of a sod to get to in the evenings what sort of time does it start?
Cheers

Paul



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Re: Groups in Essex?

Postby Nigel » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:24 pm

Mark Lancaster wrote:
Paul8v wrote:Hi there, just been told about this forum so I thought I'd have a little look. I was just wondering if anyone knew of any re-enactment groups in the Essex area? I'm currently in the Sealed Knot but I'd like to do some medieval re-enactment too.

Many thanks

Paul


Hi Paul,

Not re-enactment (although we do have cross over with members) but we do medieval WMA (c1400) in Barking - which is traditionally Essex :D


And Mark is a top bloke


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Postby Dave B » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:44 pm

Paul8v wrote:Looks like I've opened a can of worms by mistake here! I wasa thinking to start off with I'd get a padded jack, a barbute and gauntlets, what else would I need apart from hose, footwear and a shirt?


To be honest (and watch me stir up another can of worms here) whilst a Barbute is a great re-enating helmet, and they look very cool, there is not a huge amount of evidence for them in an english context. Sure it looks likely that there were some, imported from italy. however I suspect that there were not a lot, and what there were may well have gone with more armour than you are proposing to have.

Having said that I know that several people disagree with me on this, and it's hard to prove. there are some good records, but it seems certain that the words for different types of helmets did not mean the same then as now (for instance 'Sallet' could have meant the helmet that we now call a Sallet, but it could have just meant 'helmet'. If you want to see the whole debate then use the search tool at the top leaft of the screen and put in 'barbute'

If it was me my priorities would be.

Shoes and Hose (because whilst most groups will lend you all kinds of kit, medival shoes mold to the feet, and hose have to be made to measure)

Shirt, belt, bag, doublet, bowl, eating knife.

Then Helmet and Jack, and then weapons.

It's my experience that there are generaly loads of helmets and quite a bit of armour about to be borrowed, one way or another.

Dave.


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Postby Fox » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:59 pm

Dave B wrote:If it was me my priorities would be.

Shoes and Hose (because whilst most groups will lend you all kinds of kit, medival shoes mold to the feet, and hose have to be made to measure)

Shirt, belt, bag, doublet, bowl, eating knife.

Then Helmet and Jack, and then weapons.

It's my experience that there are generaly loads of helmets and quite a bit of armour about to be borrowed, one way or another.

Dave.


I'd almost agree with Dave, in that you probably don't want to buy a weapon until you know what you want and you won't know that until you've tried a few; but I'd get down to using one as soon as possible.

While shoes and hose are some of the more difficult items to sort out, I've never known anyone who needs practice in using them.

Generally, you might also want to hold off on getting anything at all until your certain what period your doing and what the requirements of any group are [some will be more proscriptive than others].

I'd also really recommend going down to see Mark and the Exiles; they are seriously lovely people.

What they do is not re-enactment, and start with might even feel like it's completely contrary to what your taught in re-enactment combat, but over time the quandary resolves itself and I don't think there's a problem of having two things in your head at once.

Moreover, it will give you a good idea about why re-enactment combat is not like the real thing (and why it is). And it'll teach you good footwork and posture and that is helpful.



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Postby Dave B » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:56 pm

Fox wrote:While shoes and hose are some of the more difficult items to sort out, I've never known anyone who needs practice in using them..


Well, not until the beer tent opens anyway. I've seen a few people who need help steering their shoes home, and Pigpen used to continualy have difficulty remembering to wear his pants round his nethers rather than as a hat.


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Postby the real lord duvet » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:23 am

i'd also suggest your own brais. although some groups have shared underpants



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Postby zauberdachs » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:45 am

Fox wrote:What they do is not re-enactment, and start with might even feel like it's completely contrary to what your taught in re-enactment combat, but over time the quandary resolves itself and I don't think there's a problem of having two things in your head at once.


I continually struggle with this, as do other WMA people I know, and have decided I just cannot "re-enactment fight" with a longsword. To many years and learning that the head and face is the instinctive primary target area for thrusts and cuts. If it was just a case of having it in your head it's not a great deal of bother but once it's in your muscle memory then it's a different story.


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Re: Groups in Essex?

Postby Mark Lancaster » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:32 pm

Hi Paul,

Paul8v wrote:
I've always fancied doing some WMA but didn't know there was one so close! What days do you do it on? Barking can be a bit of a sod to get to in the evenings what sort of time does it start?
Cheers

Paul


We do Sunday mornings 10am to 1pm and Weds Eve 7pm to 9:30pm for the main training.

Where about in Essex are you? We've 4 guys who come down from Southend and I travel down from Norfolk (so there could be a chance of a lift there).

Ironically I've just posted up details of a one-day workshop we're having in the Events section - http://livinghistory.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15400 - on one handed sword use (with the longsword). It might be worth thinking about that as it'll let you see WMA compared to Re-enactment combat.

Fox put it really well - but I'd add that the two share a lot in common with massive interest in the period(s), weapons and both have top people :P Some of the best fighters that I have seen have brought elements from both areas (for example, the spacial awareness of top re-enactment fighters is incredible).

Cheers,

Mark




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