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Can any one help find Medieval Statue laws and Ordinances

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:20 pm
by Ben Rodgers
Ive been doing some research on soldiering in the Wars of the Roses towards my dissertation and have read a bit about laws that were placed like the classic example of boys from the age of seven having to practise archery etc etc and the banning of football however ive not been able to find out where these laws have come from I hd a brief look on the net for statue laws around the 14th and 15th Century. Same with the case of ordinacnes. Can anyone out there point me in the right direction to where i may find these laws

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:08 am
by Dave Key
It's a very good question to ask and you'd be surprised how often the "I read it somewhere" is actually just a Chinese Whisper of the real Statutes.

For England your starting point if you want to read the actual Statutes is ...

"Statutes of the Realm"
Vol 1 (1235-1377)
Vol 2 (1377-1504)
Published London : G. Eyre and A. Strahan, 1810-1828.

Not a lightweight read I'm afraid.

You can get a list (but not the text) of the acts from Wikipedia ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ac ... nt_to_1601

Many of the 'classic' prohibitions are repeated through the reigns ... but to give a flavour ...

12 Richard II [1388]
Item, It is accorded and assented, That no servant of Husbandry, or Labourer, nor Servant Artificer, nor Victualler, shall from henceforth bear any [Buckler] Sword, nor Dagger upon Forfeiture of the same, but in the Time of War for Defnce of the Realm of Engand ..... but such Servants and Labourers shall have Bows and Arrows, and use the same the Sundays and Holydays, and leave all playing at Tennis, Football, and other Games called Coits, Dice, Casting of the Stone and other such importune Games; and that the Sheriffs, Mayors, Bailiffs, and Constables, shall have Power to arrest, and shall arrest all Doers against this Statute, and seize the said [Bucklers,] Swords, and Daggers ...

Similar act in 11 Henry IV (1409-10)

Act vs Pattenmakers using Aspe which is needed for Fletchers to make arrows 4 Henry V (1416)

Soldiers only to wear Liveries of Clothing and hats in time of war : 8 Henry VI (1429)

Captains can only dock wages of their soldiers for clothing - 18 Henry VI (1439)

Prohibition about leaving the army without Licence - 18 Henry VI (1439)

Have fun!

Cheers
Dave

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:54 pm
by the real lord duvet
i used to work in a government department's law library that had the 1743 reprint of all british legislation dating back to 1380. It ran to about 43 volumes or a whole bookcase and they put it in store because no one else ever read them.

i don't know where the books went but if you want the pure statutes contact one of the inns of court to ask if they have copies too.

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:57 pm
by Graham Field
Hi

This may help

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/

Regards

Graham

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:46 pm
by Dave Key
Graham Field wrote:Hi

This may help

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/

Regards

Graham



Calendar Patent Rolls are not the same as the Statutes of the Realm. Useful and well worth a browse though they may be.

If you were after the Scottish parliament then it's online. For England I think you'll have to go for the hardcopy. Ask Inter Library Loans for Vols 1 and 2 and be prepared for a lot of whining about the size!

The vols are BIG and come in French & English.

The Volumes I referenced are the George III reprint of all English Legislation. The publication dates are quite wide as there were alot published ... but if I recall correctly Vol 2 was 1816.

Cheers
Dave

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:11 pm
by Graham Field
Calendar Patent Rolls are not the same as the Statutes of the Realm. Useful and well worth a browse though they may be.


Yes, although I did check before posting and the first one I came across, was for the enforcement of the statute given in the example above:

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r2v5/body/Richard2vol5page0074.pdf

"Appointmentof the king's knight John Golofre to superintend
(supervid end')in the king's name all yeomen of the household and others
below that rank, whatever their estate or office, and to compel them,
wherever throughout England or from elsewhere they happen in the
retinue (comiti of the king) to pass, ride or stay, to carry bows and
arrows with them and practice archery ; with power to punish contrariants
at discretion."

English statutes can be found here

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk

Regards

Graham

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:06 pm
by the real lord duvet
Dave Key wrote:
The vols are BIG and come in French & English.

The Volumes I referenced are the George III reprint of all English Legislation. The publication dates are quite wide as there were alot published ... but if I recall correctly Vol 2 was 1816.

Cheers
Dave


Them's the ones I meant too. At one point they were intending to throw them in a skip and I could have taken them all home....

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:50 am
by Dave Key
Graham Field wrote:
Calendar Patent Rolls are not the same as the Statutes of the Realm. Useful and well worth a browse though they may be.


Yes, although I did check before posting and the first one I came across, was for the enforcement of the statute given in the example above:

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r2v5/body/Richard2vol5page0074.pdf

"Appointmentof the king's knight John Golofre to superintend
(supervid end')in the king's name all yeomen of the household and others
below that rank, whatever their estate or office, and to compel them,
wherever throughout England or from elsewhere they happen in the
retinue (comiti of the king) to pass, ride or stay, to carry bows and
arrows with them and practice archery ; with power to punish contrariants
at discretion."

English statutes can be found here

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk

Regards

Graham


Graham,

Nice reference and I hadn't realised they had some of the old Statutes on the Ministry of Justice Website ... pretty selective list of early Statutes though :-(

Cheers
Dave

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:16 am
by Graham Field
Hi

Yes quite sparse, it would nice to see them add more over time.

Regards

Graham

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:21 pm
by Ben Rodgers
Thank you all for your replies, #ive looked into the areas uyou have suggested the only problem is the book Statute of the Realm unfortunatley I cant find anywhere not even in library's which is a shame as would have been useful but thank you all so far for your knowledge

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:36 pm
by Merlon.
Try searching on COPAC
http://copac.ac.uk/
There are 141 copies of "Statutes of the Realm" in Libraries scattered across the UK.
Depending on the Library you may need to get a letter of introduction.
Good luck

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:36 pm
by Ben Rodgers
Sorry what is a letter of introduction

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:44 pm
by Merlon.
Some of the more important archives and collections will not allow you access, unless you have a letter from someone like your course tutor or professor. Basically it's to prove you are not a nutter who will steal, deface, destroy material in the collection.
Identify the library closest to you with a copy and talk to the chief librarian or archivist there about what you need to provide to gain access

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:47 pm
by Langley
Next question - how many of them have been repealed? Is football still illegal? Do I have to have a shave because my beard will interfere with my archery?

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:00 pm
by gregory23b
Laws that have not been enacted for certain periods of time become automatically redundant, a reform act came about in the 19thc IIRC, so the idea that archery practice being still mandatory (for example) is a modern myth, it has not been mandatory for hundreds of years.

Some leag bod will be able to put the above into more coherent phrasing, but the gist being, old statute laws are defunct if not used over a period of time or superseded by other ones.

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:32 pm
by Colin Middleton
Langley wrote:Do I have to have a shave because my beard will interfere with my archery?


I'd love you to try and explane that one to our archery captin! :D

gregory23b wrote:Some leag bod will be able to put the above into more coherent phrasing, but the gist being, old statute laws are defunct if not used over a period of time or superseded by other ones.


I wonder if our government know that...

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:18 pm
by Langley
Jorge - you spoilsport. I suppose I have to go and pull the arrows out of the Welshman I found wandering around Hereford after midnight too.