Late Medieval hats

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John Waller
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Late Medieval hats

Postby John Waller » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:07 pm

Looking at some import records I was surprised at the scale of hat imports which included the following types of hat:-

St Omer - I understand that St Omer was a centre of felt hat making, but were St Omer hats a distinctive style?
Coppyn/copyn/copin
Straw - much the commonest, thousands imported
Split
Felt
Double - degree of fulling / measure of weight?
Single - ditto

Can anyone enlighten me as to what the different types mean or look like?


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Postby gregory23b » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:34 pm

You have been eating that petty accounts source again ;-)

The sheer scale of imported everything is amazing.


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Postby John Waller » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:02 pm

gregory23b wrote:You have been eating that petty accounts source again ;-)

The sheer scale of imported everything is amazing.


Sure have. It's fascinating stuff if you like lists. It certainly gives food for thought. I'm amazed at the amount of sugar imported for example.
I'm currently converting the data into a simple database to do some analysis on the armour imports.

Nice to see you at Tewks btw.

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Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:18 pm

I'm guesing that the 'double' means lined while the 'single' means unlined.


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Postby sally » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:19 pm

I wonder if the double hats are knitted, there are some sailors hats in the Rijksmuseum for example that are described as double hats, and they are effectively two layers of densely knitted fabric. I'm working on an interpetation of this one for example, and i wonder if it might possibly be close to the double hats you have listed
http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/collectie/zoe ... 15&lang=nl



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Postby Ben Rodgers » Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:17 am

may i ask what list this is from sound intriguing


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John Waller
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Postby John Waller » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:54 am

London Petty Custom accounts available at the excellent British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=159


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Postby Wiblick » Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:59 pm

oh god no, you did not just show me that.... I wonder what weight a case of sugar is...



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Postby John Waller » Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:14 pm

20 cases sugar weight 20 C. lbs
30 cases sugar weight 30 C. lbs.

I'm not exactly sure what these mean. Is 20 C lbs = 200 lbs or 2,000lbs? Is this the weight of 20 cases or the weight of each case. Any way there is an awful lot of sugar listed. How many times have you heard it said medieval people did not eat sugar?


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Postby Dave Key » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:17 pm

John Waller wrote:20 cases sugar weight 20 C. lbs
30 cases sugar weight 30 C. lbs.

I'm not exactly sure what these mean. Is 20 C lbs = 200 lbs or 2,000lbs? Is this the weight of 20 cases or the weight of each case. Any way there is an awful lot of sugar listed. How many times have you heard it said medieval people did not eat sugar?



If I remember correctly for the Customs accounts you're seeing the taxable value of the listed item, so 20 cases of sugar weighs 20 C lbs in total ... i.e. 1 C lbs per case.

But now you're stepping into a whole new world of confusion ... medieval weights and measures ... get your anorak out because it's a wild ride of minutia ...

1. " 20 cases" ... not sure but it entirely likely that in this instance a "case" is not a descriptive term but a meaure ... like a pipe or a basket and it can vary but here it appears to be 1 C lbs

2. how much is a hundred! You'd think C = 100, but no ... that would be too easy ;-) It all depends on what the C refers to ... it can be 100, or it can be 112 (a hundredweight at the time was, I believe, 112 pounds (it had been 108)) or it can be 120 (from memory ij C bows = 240 bows)

As a basic guide it appears to depend on whether you're measuring by weight, volume or quantity.

So for sugar I'd go for weight and I'd err on 112 lbs.

I'll see if I can find how sugar is measured. There are certainly references in the Port and Brokage books for Southampton which list sugar etc. these often give more detail on valuation etc.


On the subject of hats ... I've heard "Coppyn" hats described as being the acorn cap style but for the life of me I can't remember where that comes from, sorry!
Cheers
Dave



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Postby John Waller » Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:09 pm

Dave,
Thanks for that. I'm sure I have a book on historic weights and measures somewhere(?). Do you know if the Southampton records are available online anywhere? I think they may be in JSTOR but I don't have access.

Cheers

John


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Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:39 pm

Coincidently I've just come across a similar thing in the Howard accounts. He's ordering in c.'s of stockfish and corn meal? to outfit a ship with. I'd guessed hundredweight to make sense of it.


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Postby sally » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:21 pm

you know you can get into jstor if you subscribe to, for example, an online readers ticket at the National Library of Wales site (sure some of the others must do it too) and ask for an Athens password at the same time :idea:



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Postby Dave Key » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:46 pm

John Waller wrote:Dave,
Thanks for that. I'm sure I have a book on historic weights and measures somewhere(?). Do you know if the Southampton records are available online anywhere? I think they may be in JSTOR but I don't have access.

Cheers

John


John,

Sorry I don't know, I'm a subscriber to the series so I've never checked.

I can keep my eyes out, and you can get back copies of some of the series which are really worth a browse through.

There are also loads of the records that have never been published at all ... I have images of parts but I've never had the time to properly study them :-(

Some are really fascinating especialy the payment to the Town gunner's assistant for grinding backpowder, shortly followed by the payment to the gunner assistant for the clothes that he burnt .... maybe not the most able assistant! :roll:

Cheers
Dave



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Re: Late Medieval hats

Postby smudge » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:48 pm

John Waller wrote:Looking at some import records I was surprised at the scale of hat imports which included the following types of hat:-

St Omer - I understand that St Omer was a centre of felt hat making, but were St Omer hats a distinctive style?
Coppyn/copyn/copin
Straw - much the commonest, thousands imported
Split
Felt
Double - degree of fulling / measure of weight?
Single - ditto

Can anyone enlighten me as to what the different types mean or look like?


hello

single fulling= with the felt very wet and soapy makes the fluffy bendy felt.

double fulling=when its been rinced and runged out, fulling the felt again makes it firm and is how you make the stiffer hats stand up

woo! i know something :D


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