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Doublets circa 1470

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:21 pm
by Zachos
Doublets circa 1470

So most of the things I've heard about doublets is that they have extra panels for the "skirts" in order for the fitted-ness to work properly. I guess I have a weird body, because I can get the desired effect without adding the skirt.

Whats the thoughts? My new doublet will be completely hand sewn, so knocking down the amount of seams would be good, but I'll only do it if its historically correct.

Cheers

Zac

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:34 pm
by guthrie
You mean your waist is the same size as your hips and chest?
Interesting.

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:42 pm
by gregory23b
He needs to add more bulk to the top to give him some more chest then.


muahha

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:24 pm
by Zachos
guthrie wrote:You mean your waist is the same size as your hips and chest?
Interesting.


No, it means I have a flat stomach.

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:07 pm
by guthrie
but then how can you claim to have a doublet without any need for skirts? We are talking about a tight fitting doublet which comes down to perhpas half way dopwn your hips, or around 4 inches below your true waist, are we not?
Certainly, some earlier doublets seem to have all been one piece, but if you are doing 1470, then you need the skirts to expand out again after your narrow waist.

What desired effect do you think you are looking for?

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:39 pm
by lidimy
Zachos wrote:
guthrie wrote:You mean your waist is the same size as your hips and chest?
Interesting.


No, it means I have a flat stomach.


Oooh that's cutting! :lol: But as Gurthrie said, you need to accentuate that fact, not cover it up.

Surely a doublet without the extra skirts is only a viable possibility if you can find more than one reference to it?

Anyway... why are you going on about the amount of sewing... you're not that one making it are you? :twisted:

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:43 pm
by guthrie
Mention of flat stomachs is nothing- I was over 6 foot tall at 18 and still only weighed 9.5 stones. I only got up to 11.5 stones by the time I was 25, and even then it doesn't really show.

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:29 pm
by Zachos
lidimy wrote:Anyway... why are you going on about the amount of sewing... you're not that one making it are you? :twisted:


No, but I don't want mother to wear her fingers to the bone.

Essentially, I'm asking if 1470ish doublets ALWAYS had the waist seam. I know evidence will always be sketchy on that kind of thing, but it really is a lot more work.

It sounds like Guthrie and myself have the same issues when strong winds blow. I've set myself the target of being two stone heavier by the end of this year. Otherwise I'll get lifted out of my saddle whenever I hit anything with my lance...

Cheers

Zac

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:10 pm
by guthrie
I don't know how old you are, but the best thing to do is keep training, eat healthily and sensibly, and if you still havn't filled out by the time you're 26 or 27, then it'll never happen. If it hadn't been for the re-enactment training with bills and swords putting a bit of muscle on me, I wouldn't even have reached 11.5 stones.

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:16 pm
by Dave B
guthrie wrote:I don't know how old you are, but the best thing to do is keep training, eat healthily and sensibly, and if you still havn't filled out by the time you're 26 or 27, then it'll never happen. If it hadn't been for the re-enactment training with bills and swords putting a bit of muscle on me, I wouldn't even have reached 11.5 stones.


Pah. I was still dead skinny at 30.

Then I got married and had two kids, and now i'm quite fat. It's never too late to get fat.

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:40 am
by Skevmeister
I'm here with Dave on that one, kids, hard work and beer all add to that wonderful Mail padding we call lardiness !!!

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:24 am
by guthrie
Dave B wrote:Pah. I was still dead skinny at 30.

Then I got married and had two kids, and now i'm quite fat. It's never too late to get fat.

I am differentiating between having some muscle, being stick thin (Some teenagers I've seen look like I could break them in half, and i'm not even strong) and being fat. Oddly enough everyone my age or so I know who is married or going out with someone has a paunch, except for one of them who was in training for half marathons, and another who is like myself.

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:26 pm
by Vicky
You do not need a waist seam on 1470s doublets, it can be fitted without. See:
http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/m ... john1.html

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:46 pm
by lidimy
But if Zac is going for the conventional doublet with the triangular standing collar, that doesn't really apply, does it...?

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:16 pm
by guthrie
Well, that picture looks like you can have a doublet with no skirsts, as long as you cut the cloth properly. But well spotted, it has no collar.

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:28 am
by Zachos
Surely the construction of doublets wouldn't change with the different collars? If its possible to get the correct shape using no separate skirts, then thats what they'd do. No everyone was working from the same tailors book.

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:02 pm
by Andy R
Dave B wrote:Pah. I was still dead skinny at 30.

Then I got married and had two kids, and now i'm quite fat. It's never too late to get fat.


What that man said :cry:

(added two stone in two years)

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:12 pm
by lidimy
Zachos wrote:Surely the construction of doublets wouldn't change with the different collars? If its possible to get the correct shape using no separate skirts, then thats what they'd do. No everyone was working from the same tailors book.


No, but if you were directly approached to provide the source(s) for that particular style, then you'd be forced into a compromised position surely, by saying 'well I took that bit from there, that bit from there...' etc. Not saying that it is impossible that they mixed and matched, just that it is perhaps best approached with caution by reenactors.

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:08 pm
by Lonestan
What Dave, Skev and Andy said!
I had a conversation with Dave last year about moob development in men with children, now I've had a second son they've really come on!

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:00 pm
by Colin Middleton
That could be a wait seam, but it doesn't appear to be. I would have thought one necessary for a waist like that.

Sarah Thursfield modled a toil on me as a demonstration and I NEARLY came away without a seam at the front (my belly sticks out about as much as my chest), but I needed one at the back because my bum sticks out.

I don't beleive that they would add a seam if they didn't need it, but I suspect that most people do by virtue of the shape of the human body.

Good luck on getting a nice fit out of it Zachos.

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:49 pm
by Zachos
lidimy wrote:No, but if you were directly approached to provide the source(s) for that particular style, then you'd be forced into a compromised position surely, by saying 'well I took that bit from there, that bit from there...' etc. Not saying that it is impossible that they mixed and matched, just that it is perhaps best approached with caution by reenactors.


If every other source showed waist seams I guess you would be right, but the problem is that most don't show anything there, or seams at all, so very little can be gathered. I think we'll try it without, while still going for the classic 15th century look.

Thanks all, now you can talk about the changes age makes to your body.

Zac

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:59 am
by lidimy
OK, I was making assumptions based on just that pic (wil lI be shot at dawn?) as I haven't exactly spent time on doubletical research!




But waist seams still look better! :oops:

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:51 pm
by Shaggy
Andy R wrote:
Dave B wrote:Pah. I was still dead skinny at 30.

Then I got married and had two kids, and now i'm quite fat. It's never too late to get fat.


What that man said :cry:

(added two stone in two years)


5 stone in 5 years, dead simple really - left the Army, quit running and doing PT but kept on eating 5 meals a day and drinking like a fish......

.......Regretting it now though!