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WOR Fed Combat

Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:35 pm
by behanner
I was wondering if anyone out there would be willing to make a WOR combat how to video. I've seen video of fights and one in person a good time ago but I am interested in an instructional video of some sort. I had a friend trying to get me one but she has become super busy so it hasn't materialized.

Anyone want to help me out?

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:41 am
by Allan Harley
Would you like to script something?

Frankly this sounds like a good idea, and could give new starters/groups a flavour/idea of what is expected.

Now who has the time, energy, willingness and ability to do this?

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:25 am
by Edmund the Marshal
Sounds like a great idea, our group mainly do tournament combat.

Something like this would be good refresher on WOR combat, to watch before attending Tewk's etc


Keep us updated on how's it does

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:31 pm
by Chris, yclept John Barber
I'd be happy to do the scripting, preferably in conjunction with other volunteers willing to make suggestions and comments on the drafts. We also have someone in our group who I'm sure would be willing to do the filming. [But two or three more volunteers would be welcome for the different camera-angles and coverage without too many re-takes.] The trouble he has is finding time to do the editing - we are into the second year of waiting for our promotional DVD now...

I'd also be willing to "direct" - not from a camera-angle type of technical direction, but explaining what we need for the next shot to a crowd of thugs wot just wants to get on wiv da hittin.

Initial idea would be to have sections on:

The re-enactment style of fighting with polearms as an individual

How to train to fight cooperatively with others

The drill used - will require agreement on uniform standards and commands

(These first three could be filmed at normal weekly practice evenings)

Finally, footage shot at a battle or training event [filmed away from the public battle so that we can do the 'filming bit' of re-takes and having cameramen amongst the units]. It would show the stuff that goes on - how to 'fall dead' and recover, the importance of water-carriers and marshals, conventions on attacking fighting archers and standard-bearers. But mostly close-in stuff to get exciting footage to entice the viewers.


PM me if you'd like to help out in any way, or to tell me that you're a professional scriptwriter who's willing to take over and would like me to go away quietly... :lol:

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:05 pm
by Allan Harley
No don't go away -all sounds good and is something that has been needed for a while

IF no opportunity before - what about Kenilworth on The August Bank Holiday - Sunday night for 1-2 hrs? - or Saturday after the public have gone

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:25 pm
by Chris, yclept John Barber
I can't be at Kenilworth (KIB are at Fort Paull, Hull) but am willing to hand over the script for other directors/cameramen if there are any other volunteers.

Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:10 pm
by Allan Harley
Too much going on at Bosworth, trying to think of when,but please put a script together if you can.

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:06 pm
by Chris, yclept John Barber
The first draft of the script is now available. if anyone would like to see and comment on it, let me know by PM.

I'd like as much input on this as possible, so that it's not just KIBS' view of the world, but copyright is reserved to me.

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:48 pm
by behanner
Can you put in a sword and buckler section if you haven't already and do many people use hand and a half swords?

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:38 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
Way too many.

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:59 pm
by Chris, yclept John Barber
behanner wrote:Can you put in a sword and buckler section if you haven't already and do many people use hand and a half swords?


Sword & buckler are a lot of fun, but I don't intend to put them in my script for three reasons:

1) There are so many things you need to learn to fight with a sword & buckler that it would have to completely dominate the script. It's a lot simpler to show the basics of fighting with bills (and other polearms) - the difficult bit is just building your skill once you have the very basics.

2) There are already a lot of DVDs around on sword & buckler (mostly from the WMA point of view). I don't know of any on polearms.

3) Sword & buckler or hand and a half swords are fun in single combat, but having been on a C15th battlefield a couple of times with them I'm aware of why they weren't primary battlefield weapons back then - all very well skirmishing and getting some scrapping done in the open gaps, but eventually you find yourself facing a bill-block and dying in very short order.
I prefer to see polearms going onto the field, rather than the unstoppable clankies who refuse to acknowledge that even the best-armoured man-at-arms wouldn't have plunged into the bill line the way they do. There are always gaps in armour which a spear or bill-point can exploit, especially if Sir Clankalot has body-slammed the front rank and is trying to push through them so he can't dodge so well.
Just this Sunday a clankie trying exactly that assured me (as I repeatedly poked his inner thigh through a gap between the people he was pushing me) that he wouldn't react to my attacks because the back of his legs were armoured too. Since at the time I was striking the bit of his inner thigh where there was no armour, and the main femoral artery is less than an inch below the skin, I wasn't impressed!


So there you are: there is a section in the draft script advising billmen to practice against sword & buckler fighters, and showing the results, but I don't think it's a good idea to encourage people to go onto the field with short weapons.

For those who are swordsmen and want to play on a C15th field, the film will be useful as it contains information about the conventions of C15th re-enactment and stuff like camp etiquette.

Of course, if you volunteered to critique it I might be persuaded by your comments...

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:27 pm
by gregory23b
"all very well skirmishing and getting some scrapping done in the open gaps, but eventually you find yourself facing a bill-block and dying in very short order. "

That eliminates fighting archers, who once have used their arrows are used as a tactical element, whether they had swords and bucklers or anything else, bills for that matter. To write them out is to skew the numbers somewhat in favour of men with long sticks.

"facing a bill-block "

That also depends if the bill block is a unit written in stone, or something we use for convenience or are open to changing.

IMHO such a video would be useful to show how varied the fighting can and was.

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:43 pm
by RottenCad
Chris, yclept John Barber wrote:
3) Sword & buckler or hand and a half swords are fun in single combat, but having been on a C15th battlefield a couple of times with them I'm aware of why they weren't primary battlefield weapons back then - all very well skirmishing and getting some scrapping done in the open gaps, but eventually you find yourself facing a bill-block and dying in very short order.


Aye, right up until you roll the billmen's flank and they're Friared ...

TTFN!

Cad

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:35 pm
by Fox
RottenCad wrote:
Chris, yclept John Barber wrote:
3) Sword & buckler or hand and a half swords are fun in single combat, but having been on a C15th battlefield a couple of times with them I'm aware of why they weren't primary battlefield weapons back then - all very well skirmishing and getting some scrapping done in the open gaps, but eventually you find yourself facing a bill-block and dying in very short order.


Aye, right up until you roll the billmen's flank and they're Friared ...


I think you'll find that single ranked billmen with no flank protection is a re-enactorism.

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:41 pm
by gregory23b
"I think you'll find that single ranked billmen with no flank protection is a re-enactorism."


I think you'll find that ranked billmen are a re-enactorism.

muhahahha

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:54 pm
by Fox
gregory23b wrote:I think you'll find that ranked billmen are a re-enactorism.


Definitely not. Defintely absolutely not.

You have argued that for mid/late 15thC in England they are re-enactorism. I disagree, but agree it is open to debate and further research.

What I can tell you is that armies don't form battles a single man deep. At very least most armies follow the Alexandrian method of three men deep and as wide as you can, many are deeper still depending on circumstance.

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:34 pm
by gregory23b
"Definitely not. Defintely absolutely not. "

"I disagree, but agree it is open to debate and further research."

So not absolutely or definitely then?


"You have argued that for mid/late 15thC in England they are re-enactorism."

If you do something or use something without any evidence to back up the reasoning, then it is a reenactorism by definition.

The facts are that bill blocks are as far as we know only present in WOTR reenactment, not in the evidence that we have.

It can't come from a default position of what we have makes sense, that is not evidence.

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:52 pm
by Fox
Don't be carving up my quotes to change the context. :x

Illustration and desciption give good credence to the idea of ranks of billmen.

It is arguable whether this is only in
(a) in other parts of Europe
and
(b) later in date

I would argue that there is no good evidence to suggest against a formation of billman for WotR, and would suggest that it is a reasonable extrapolation as to how these weapons were used (in lieu of actual evidence of use, but with evidence of existence).

I would have reservations about the domination of these units as depicted by most re-enactments. [re-enactorism, which the evidence seems to show is wrong]

I'd love to have more details of actual use of these units which I think may be slightly different to our depictions too.
Evidence, such as it is, would give the impression that single depth formations are purely for the convinience of re-enactors.

We're hijkacking someone elses thread, and we should stop that.

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:07 pm
by gregory23b
"Illustration and desciption give good credence to the idea of ranks of billmen. "

Where? this is precisely the point, there are no such images, mainly because we know that it was not just bills that were used, so 'billman' is a red herring and which descriptions, please let us have them.


"I would argue that there is no good evidence to suggest against a formation of billman for WotR, and would suggest that it is a reasonable extrapolation as to how these weapons were used (in lieu of actual evidence of use, but with evidence of existence). "


almost sounds like a LENEL in there somewhere.

We have no evidence but somewhere else formed units, despite very different military styles and social make ups and possibly different eras, that is very very poor reasoning and more arguments against than for.

We have made it up, blind guessed at best.


"Don't be carving up my quotes to change the context. Mad "

Apols, my point was you cannot be absolutely sure of anything.


we should be discussing this in the other thread btw.

I will c and p it,

sorry Chris.

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:32 pm
by guthrie
Jorge, to put it another way, would you agree with ranks/ blocks of pole armed men, with archers behind/ in front as the tactics dictate, with mounted riders either leading things on or hanging about to the side waiting for their opening?

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:39 pm
by behanner
Chris, yclept John Barber wrote:So there you are: there is a section in the draft script advising billmen to practice against sword & buckler fighters, and showing the results, but I don't think it's a good idea to encourage people to go onto the field with short weapons.

For those who are swordsmen and want to play on a C15th field, the film will be useful as it contains information about the conventions of C15th re-enactment and stuff like camp etiquette.


While I would assume that sword or sword and buckler would be somewhat self explanetory once one understand the combat how about just spend a little extra time talking about sword vs bill and kinda give a little emphasis to both sides instead of just the one.

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:14 pm
by Glorfindle
Guys, whilst i think that the conversation is all good regarding the bill blocks and tinnies and swords and everything else we can all whinge and moan about as being inaccurate, do you want this video to be a educational tool, or a video that will show what your going to face on the field? If its a accurate teaching video, then yeah, lets gets 100 odd men out there in two bill blocks three deep, and let them at each other. It'll look really nice, but lets face it, your almost never going to actually come across it on the field. Or are you doing this to give new members a glimpse into the feel of fighting in re-enactment? If that's the case, i think you will need to have tinnies against them, as lets face it, there going to come up against them at one point or another in there first fight if its a semi large event.

I only fight with a hand and a half, i'm not a full tinny, and i find it quite easy to get into a bill block and make a mess, but only if there not used to fighting us. If your going to do this i'll volunteer my time to help how ever you wish to do it.

Also have you thought about doing it at tewks as that would be the best place to get lots and lots of people to participate as were all going to be there.

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:08 pm
by Colin Middleton
Chris, I think that a Sword & Buckler chapter is a good idea. Not to detail how to use a S&B (or a longsword for that matter), but more to cover skirmishing on the field.

As you said, a rank of skirmishers in light armour against a block of bills is chopped meat (run away and make it look good), but skirmishers will tend to work the flanks of units and controlling other skirmishers. It would be good to illustrate that side of things for those who want to fight that way.

Also, much of the video may appear irrelevant to a skirmisher, so a chapter just for them drawing attention (briefly) to what they still need to know is worthwhile. Remember that with a DVD you can skip around chapters, so people will use them that way.

It may not require much dialog for the skirmish section, but a couple of illustrative clashes may well be of profit.

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:54 am
by behanner
Anything ever become of this?

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:02 am
by Glorfindle
I was hoping that the new post in here was going to be dates or something.... Oh well... :(

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:30 am
by Chris, yclept John Barber
As stated in an earlier post, my draft of the script is complete and people are invited to look it over and make suggestions and objections. No-one apparently wanted to, since it promptly became tumbleweed time.

I also didn't hear of any volunteers to edit the resulting footage, so even if we turned up at an event and shot it, the results would never get anywhere.

Still willing to do whatever i can towards this, though.

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:23 am
by Glorfindle
Send us a draft so I can have a butchers through it then 8)

I would offer to do the editing, but i am absolutely shite at it!

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:41 am
by behanner
While I think a nicely edited video with a great script would be wonderful personally at the moment I'd settle for an hour of mostly unedited but structured video. You can't see much in you tube videos and some real description would be nice. One of the things that has made the Vikings sucessful here in the US was a strong effort to get people here using their combat system. Not sure if that will happen the same but personall I'm interested in traveling over there too.